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Thread: Better Scrums

      
  1. #41

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    Default Re: Better Scrums

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian_Cook View Post
    It is physically impossible to pull on an opponent in front of you when your bodyweight is ahead of your feet. It cannot be done. Any non-believers reading this? Go try pulling your car along while facing it with your bodyweight ahead of your feet. Good luck trying; it cannot be done!
    Ian, by your theory, humans would be incapable of lifting objects in front of them if they are bent over forwards.

  2. #42
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    Default Re: Better Scrums

    When you bend over to pcik something up you bum is behind your feet, or you fall on your nose.
    When your feet are a foot behind your bum you are going to go forwards.

    In a position to push



    In a position to pull


  3. #43

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    Default Re: Better Scrums

    Quote Originally Posted by Rushforth View Post
    Ian, by your theory, humans would be incapable of lifting objects in front of them if they are bent over forwards.
    Its not "my" theory, its a scientific fact. Its called physics.



    It is impossible for either the green or the blue player to pull his opponent forwards, i.e. to force his opponent to take a step forward. The best either can do is allow their opponent to push them backwards.



    PS: Lifting something up not the same as pulling it horzontally.

  4. #44

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    Default Re: Better Scrums

    PK for agaiant blue for not binding!

  5. #45
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    Default Re: Better Scrums

    Quote Originally Posted by Marauder View Post
    RobLev, as you imagine it I would agree. But that isn't how it's done. At least, not in the way I have done it and coached it for 50 plus years.

    To wheel left the LHP is a pivot, wheel right and the THP is the pivot. If possible he drives forward but it's not required and if you're under pressure going backwards that isn't going to happen.

    The prop on the other side of the pivot retreats under the push/pressure of his opposite. He does not pull. no need to do so.

    The locks and 8 crab, with small quick steps, about the pivot keeping their spines in line with the scrum axis and their feet pushing forward. The flanks stay bound and try not to get in the way.

    This method is legal (cite laws if you disagree), controlled (small steps is the key), effective (it can be countered by crabbing into the wheel)and safe (much, much safer than collapsing under pressure).
    That is legal; the differential shove between LH and TH side is what wheels the scrum and side steps are required to keep the player upright. It is however not what is described by "walking it round", where the steps leads the wheel.

  6. #46

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    Default Re: Better Scrums

    Quote Originally Posted by crossref View Post
    How can a referee tell the difference between a legal, and an illegal wheel ?

    It's a serious question -- what are the give away signs I should I look for?
    crossref,
    this from post #17 by chbg.

    The Law does not require each Blue member of the scrum to push forward with the same force. If LH side pushes more strongly than RH side, reinforcing the natural tendency of the scrum to swing clockwise, then it will wheel legally (unless the opposition counter, often by stepping to the right).


    A legal wheel adheres to this explanation i.e. the initial movement of both props of the team doing the wheeling must be forward.
    When one of those props stops going forward, the scrum will pivot on him. If that same prop is going backwards, the wheel will be quicker and will pivot on the hooker (remember that his other prop is still going forward).
    Ian C is absolutely correct that if a prop is in the correct body shape with feet behind arse, knees at 120 degrees, weight forward etc, etc, he cannot pull his opposite prop toward him. To get the impression that he is "pulling" his opposite on, his own feet must be going back. That can be from two possible causes, either his opposite is stronger and is pushing harder or he is giving ground and allowing his opposite to win the pushing contest for obvious reasons. It's just that referees use the term "prop pulling opponent on" supported by signal #20 in the law book because that's what it looks like.

    To try to simplify identifying a legal wheel for guys at our level, the key indicator is, "When the wheel begins, are both props of the side doing the wheel winning the contest? i.e. is their first movement forward?"
    When you are dead, you don't know that you are dead. It is difficult only for the others.
    It's the same when you are stupid.

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    Default Re: Better Scrums

    It is however not what is described by "walking it round", where the steps leads the wheel.


    Please provide a technicasl description of "walking around" supported by law reference.

    To try to simplify identifying a legal wheel for guys at our level, the key indicator is, "When the wheel begins, are both props of the side doing the wheel winning the contest? i.e. is their first movement forward?"


    Please provide law reference that supports a requirement for both props to be "winning the contest" prior to wheeling.

  8. #48

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    Default Re: Better Scrums

    Quote Originally Posted by Marauder View Post
    It is however not what is described by "walking it round", where the steps leads the wheel.


    Please provide a technicasl description of "walking around" supported by law reference.

    To try to simplify identifying a legal wheel for guys at our level, the key indicator is, "When the wheel begins, are both props of the side doing the wheel winning the contest? i.e. is their first movement forward?"


    Please provide law reference that supports a requirement for both props to be "winning the contest" prior to wheeling.
    Is everything covered by the laws? No. We are trying to find a sensible way of dealing with something that is NOT properly covered by the laws. We know that wheeling can be legal or illegal. We hear various explanations for sanctions at top levels, and have a few hints from the laws. The rest is a mystery wrapped in an enigma.
    He trudg’d along unknowing what he sought,
    And whistled as he went, for want of thought.
    The Referee by John Dryden

  9. #49
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    Default Re: Better Scrums

    We know that wheeling can be legal or illegal


    Wheeling, in and of itself, is not illegal. Therefore, for a PK to be invoked, there must be some other cause. Thus "walking around" but there is no reference in law to "walking around" and no clear description of what it is and why it must be a penalty sanction.

    With most grey areas we can fall back on a principle of the game such as safety (hurdling an opponent) and fairness (receiver joining at a lineout). Or to simply expedite the game (allow SH to dig for the ball).

    If a wheel was executed in such a manner that it caused the opponents to collapse then that could be considered an unsafe act. But then driving a scrum backwards can cause an opponent to collapse yet it is invariably the collapsing side that gets penalized.

    Fairness? Wheeling is a skillful unit skill that can be used to limit the options of the team in possession.

    I believe that the attack on wheeling is a result of someones view of the game and nothing else and that is what really pisses me off.

  10. #50
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    Default Re: Better Scrums

    Quote Originally Posted by Marauder View Post
    It is however not what is described by "walking it round", where the steps leads the wheel.


    Please provide a technicasl description of "walking around" supported by law reference.

    ...
    I've already given it; when the wheel caused by differential strengths of shove (and/or the natural asymmetry of the scrum) causes the sidestepping, that's legal; when the sidestepping, causing an off-axis shove, leads the wheel, that's illegal.

    Or try this.

    Laws 20.2(a) and 20.8(g).

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