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Thread: Defender Held Up In-Goal

      
  1. #1

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    Default Defender Held Up In-Goal

    So, here's one from Saturday.

    Attackers kick into in-goal. Defender picks up the ball (no attempt to ground) and gets swarmed and the ball gets held up.

    I awarded a 5 metre attacking scrum because:

    22.10 Ball held up in-goal
    When a player carrying the ball is held up in the in-goal so that the player cannot ground the ball, the ball is dead. A 5-metre scrum is formed. This would apply if play similar to a maul takes place in in-goal. The attacking team throws in the ball.


    makes no mention of attacking vs defending player held up.

    Society meeting said I was wrong, should have been a 22 drop out.

    Where do others fall on this?

  2. #2

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    Default Re: Defender Held Up In-Goal

    Quote Originally Posted by pwhaling View Post
    So, here's one from Saturday.

    Attackers kick into in-goal. Defender picks up the ball (no attempt to ground) and gets swarmed and the ball gets held up.

    I awarded a 5 metre attacking scrum because:

    22.10 Ball held up in-goal
    When a player carrying the ball is held up in the in-goal so that the player cannot ground the ball, the ball is dead. A 5-metre scrum is formed. This would apply if play similar to a maul takes place in in-goal. The attacking team throws in the ball.


    makes no mention of attacking vs defending player held up.

    Society meeting said I was wrong, should have been a 22 drop out.

    Where do others fall on this?
    I thought you were correct but then I thought about it and I think you may be wrong. The more I think about it I'm tending to agree with your Society view although I can appreciate where you are coming from.

    I think I would concentrateon the who put it in goal bit and less of the player held up although the same could be said for attackers carrying the ball into in-goal and getting held up.

    I honestly don't know and will watch this thread with interest!

    Hopefully the decision you made was sold with a swagger and a degree of élan. Don't forget bullshit baffles brains!
    It's like a big tide of jam coming towards us, but jam made out of old women......Father Dougal McGuire 1998

  3. #3

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    talbazar's Avatar

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    Default Re: Defender Held Up In-Goal

    I'll give it a go...

    I believe Pwhaling was.... Drum roll.... Correct

    Because:
    1. Law 22.10 doesn't precise attacking vs. defending
    2. Law 22.9 (just before) describes what happen for defending player in in-goal
    3. Law 22.11 called "Ball dead in in-goal" doesn't cover held-up
    4. It is in-line with law 22.15 "Doubt about grounding" which gives scrum attacking team

    What do you think LLP?

    Cheers,
    Pierre.
    Rule #1: If the law doesn't forbid it, it's allowed.
    Rule #2: If it ain't in the Law Book, don't make it up.

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    Default Re: Defender Held Up In-Goal

    It's a great question.
    Attacking 5m scrum feels rght, to me

  5. #5

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    Default Re: Defender Held Up In-Goal

    Quote Originally Posted by pwhaling View Post
    So, here's one from Saturday.

    Attackers kick into in-goal. Defender picks up the ball (no attempt to ground) and gets swarmed and the ball gets held up.

    I awarded a 5 metre attacking scrum because:

    22.10 Ball held up in-goal
    When a player carrying the ball is held up in the in-goal so that the player cannot ground the ball, the ball is dead. A 5-metre scrum is formed. This would apply if play similar to a maul takes place in in-goal. The attacking team throws in the ball.


    makes no mention of attacking vs defending player held up.

    Society meeting said I was wrong, should have been a 22 drop out.

    Where do others fall on this?
    The law you quote covers the situation. Those who have doubts (including your Society) presumably follow the "who took it into in-goal" principle - which works for pretty much every other situation. The question is ... is there a law that supports them?

    The principle derives from law 22.11, and specifies the ways that the ball is made dead if that law is to apply. 20.10 specifies a different way for the ball to become dead, and a different outcome. 22.10 immediately precedes 22.11, so it seems clear that it is intended to stand on its own.

    You were correct; your Society is wrong. I'd have got it wrong too, without the luxury of time to review the texts.
    Don't feed the pedant!

  6. #6

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    Default Re: Defender Held Up In-Goal

    Is the aw specific that it should be attacking put in? why not defending put in? Attacking team held up in goal. scrum 5 attacking put in. Defending team held up in goal, scrum 5 defending put in. Just putting it out there as I have no law book here but would make rugby sense to me
    It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog!

  7. #7

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    Default Re: Defender Held Up In-Goal

    Quote Originally Posted by pwhaling View Post
    So, here's one from Saturday.

    Attackers kick into in-goal. Defender picks up the ball (no attempt to ground) and gets swarmed and the ball gets held up.

    I awarded a 5 metre attacking scrum because:

    22.10 Ball held up in-goal
    When a player carrying the ball is held up in the in-goal so that the player cannot ground the ball, the ball is dead. A 5-metre scrum is formed. This would apply if play similar to a maul takes place in in-goal. The attacking team throws in the ball.


    makes no mention of attacking vs defending player held up.

    Society meeting said I was wrong, should have been a 22 drop out.

    Where do others fall on this?
    Did the defending side revolt?

  8. #8

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    Default Re: Defender Held Up In-Goal

    Quote Originally Posted by Womble View Post
    Is the aw specific that it should be attacking put in? why not defending put in? Attacking team held up in goal. scrum 5 attacking put in. Defending team held up in goal, scrum 5 defending put in. Just putting it out there as I have no law book here but would make rugby sense to me
    22.10 BALL HELD UP IN-GOAL
    When a player carrying the ball is held up in the in-goal so that the player cannot ground the ball, the ball is dead. A 5-metre scrum is formed. This would apply if play similar to a maul takes place in in-goal. The attacking team throws in the ball.
    Don't feed the pedant!

  9. #9

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    Default Re: Defender Held Up In-Goal

    Like Dixie, my initial thought was 22m would be the answer, however he argues a very good point and one with which I find myself agreeing.

    Thanks for bringing this scenario to light and one awaits some form of WR clarification on this point
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  10. #10

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    Default Re: Defender Held Up In-Goal

    Quote Originally Posted by ddjamo View Post
    Did the defending side revolt?
    No, it was an NRU B game. I could have awarded a virtually anything and no one would have argued.

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