Defender held up but is driven immediatly out of in-goal !

[Pegleg]

After seeing the video, I still think she got it right.

I see she makes the "Unplayable ball in ruck or tackle" secondary signal, so she didn't think it was a maul..

But

A tackle can only occur in the field of play Law 15.1

And

A ruck cannot tacke place in goal Law 22.6

So her signal is wrong.

She gets the right outcome but her reasoning is wrong.

[Ronald]

We have discussed this video on a Lions (South Africa) referees page on Facebook. According to her father (also the cameraman), the collapse of the muck took place in the field of play. So the muck started in-goal, got pushed over the goal line and collapsed in the field of play. Interestingly, a fairly senior referee coach with SA Referees said that once the muck had moved into the field of play, it became a maul, and the collapse should then be treated as an unsuccessful end to a maul with a turnover....thoughts?

[rugbyslave]

"Clear the tunnel, scrum" , then steps away unable to see the feed go along the middle line, or any hooking offences ..... Not exactly a benchmark or standard practice

In addition, Red look to have isolated BC and now crossed the goal line before blue teammate gets to bind onto blue BC.

If you listen carefully she says"clear the tunnel" she does not step away she say "scrum" the ball is put in immediately on scrum(this is and U16 scrum engagement is South africa). The teams have to push and put the ball in immediately.
The players 80% are playing their first game ever. They were not able to engage on Crouch ,Bind , Set and then the ref to signal ball put in.

[rugbyslave]

THe ref clearly makes the wrong call.

The Ref indicates "held up".

Well:

1; Blue is in possesion. So IF it's a maul it should be T/O ball.

2; If it is held up in goal (who ever is held up) it is Scrum with Attacking ball.

3; The only way it can be a Blue scrum is if it is a scrum as I describe in my earlier post.


As soon as she gives the "Held up" sign, the call fails.

IF that is the video I'd have blown up for "held up" much earlier. That ball aint coming out. Poor control . Also the blue hooke is probably being driven up in the scrum so the whistle should have come much earlier.

The ref does not say "held up" all she says "collapsed" and then "ball not coming out, blue moving forward".

[crossref]

fairly senior referee coach with SA Referees said that once the muck had moved into the field of play, it became a maul, and the collapse should then be treated as an unsuccessful end to a maul with a turnover....thoughts?

I don't think that really helps : if it started with a muck, who took the ball into the maul ? Is it the team who took the ball into the original muck? Or the team that pushed the muck over the line to create a maul ?

I still go back to peglegs first answer

(d) Scrum after any other stoppage. After any other stoppage or irregularity not covered by
Law, the team that was moving forward before the stoppage throws in the ball. If neither
team was moving forward, the attacking team throws in the ball.

and the more we talk about it, the better that option seems. It really is a stoppage not properly covered by any Law
[Philosophy mode]Apart from this Law! Which will make your head spin if you think about it too much..[/Philosophy Mode]

[Ronald]

I agree with you crossref, that was my explanation on the Facebook page too, and if that ever happens to me, that will be my call!

[crossref]

I agree with you crossref, that was my explanation on the Facebook page too, and if that ever happens to me, that will be my call!

my experience is that whenever an unusal situation is discussed on RugbyRefs, it usually happens in real life within three games (I take this as evidence that we all live in the matrix ! )

[Browner]

If you listen carefully she says"clear the tunnel" she does not step away she say "scrum" the ball is put in immediately on scrum(this is and U16 scrum engagement is South africa). The teams have to push and put the ball in immediately.
The players 80% are playing their first game ever. They were not able to engage on Crouch ,Bind , Set and then the ref to signal ball put in.

Noted Rugbyslave, i didn't realise we were considering SA Juniors scrum variations.

Aside from the general discussion concerning the 'zombieMaulinGoal' ..... Turning to the vid clip , I dont see a Maul created within the in-Goal area, instead Red isolated the BC who had driven over the goal line back into the FoP before blue teammate gets to bind onto blue BC teammate - only then is a Maul Formed.