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Thread: Time to touch down

      
  1. #41

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    Default Re: Time to touch down

    Quote Originally Posted by crossref View Post
    my difference with you OB - is that I don't see 'without delay' precluding the player from looking up and assessing options.
    often he'll run to collect the ball with his back to play, I don't think the Law is intended to stop him from gathering the ball, looking up to see where everyone is, and dotting it down to get the scrum back.
    We do indeed take a totally different view of the law. I don't see how holding the ball and assessing your options can fail to constitute delay.

    conversely if the ball is on the ground in goal I think the Law does preclude him from standing next to it for a prolonged period of time before taking action to touch down.
    Strictly speaking he is not taking an action with the ball. I don't like to see players doing that - it just uses up time. Unfortunately I think they are exploiting a loophole.

    I have just looked back at the history of this law. The options date from 1992, and a note was added in 1995
    The options in Section (4) must be exercised without delay and if a defending player after gathering the ball in-goal, runs with it or passes it, he has taken the option to play on.


    In the 2000 re-write it became "Any other action with the ball ...".

    The problem has been with us for a long time. I remember a team-mate picking up the ball and immediately grounding it without looking up. The referee allowed the option this once but warned him against doing it again. Afterwards the player explained that he had merely been making it clear he was grounding it as on a previous occasion when he just put a hand on it the referee thought he had missed touching it.
    He trudg’d along unknowing what he sought,
    And whistled as he went, for want of thought.
    The Referee by John Dryden

  2. #42

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    Default Re: Time to touch down

    Quote Originally Posted by OB.. View Post
    I remember a team-mate picking up the ball and immediately grounding it without looking up. The referee allowed the option this once but warned him against doing it again. Afterwards the player explained that he had merely been making it clear he was grounding it as on a previous occasion when he just put a hand on it the referee thought he had missed touching it.
    I take on board your view that the player is not allowed a quick look -- but to me it beggars belief that this action quoted would constitute undue 'delay'

  3. #43

    Referees in England


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    Default Re: Time to touch down

    Quote from OB My view is entirely consistent with the law

    No its not!!!!! That is why we are having this discussion!!

    Again I urge you to look at the idea behind the laws (and I feel your quoting of 2000 version and the subsequent re-write do not help your case). You also, as an aside, claim there is no discernible advantage to picking the ball up in post 31 then give a very good reason for doing so in post 41.

  4. #44

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    Default Re: Time to touch down

    Quote Originally Posted by crossref View Post
    I take on board your view that the player is not allowed a quick look -- but to me it beggars belief that this action quoted would constitute undue 'delay'
    You have slipped in the word "undue". If the player only ever intended to make the ball dead, then the quick look serves no purpose at all - but it may make give the referee cause for uncertainty. Why risk it?
    He trudg’d along unknowing what he sought,
    And whistled as he went, for want of thought.
    The Referee by John Dryden

  5. #45

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    Default Re: Time to touch down

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackberry View Post
    Quote from OB My view is entirely consistent with the law

    No its not!!!!! That is why we are having this discussion!!
    The discussion is about the meaning of the. phrase "without delay" ie the interpretation of the law. My view is entirely consistent with meaning that the player should not do anything else instead of making the ball dead. I do not claim my view is the only possible one, even though I reject yours (and give my reasons)
    Again I urge you to look at the idea behind the laws
    I think the aim was to require the player to make the ball dead without doing anything else first. Your view AIUI is that they only wanted to prevent players running up and down in the in-goal to make the opponents waste time and effort chasing them. To me it makes sense that in 2000 they decided to cut out any form of messing about so the referee had an easy call.
    (and I feel your quoting of 2000 version and the subsequent re-write do not help your case).
    The main point was to show how long ago it was introduced, but a subsidiary point was that the two specific actions mentioned in 1995 (presumably what you have in mind?) were eventually expanded to "any other action with the ball"
    You also, as an aside, claim there is no discernible advantage to picking the ball up in post 31 then give a very good reason for doing so in post 41.
    You have missed the point. The incident occurred when the change was relatively new. Players and referees were still sorting out the implications. The referee in question took my view, but in a low level game was prepared to be lenient on the one occasion.
    He trudg’d along unknowing what he sought,
    And whistled as he went, for want of thought.
    The Referee by John Dryden

  6. #46
    Player or Coach ChrisR's Avatar

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    Default Re: Time to touch down

    Does the punishment fit the crime?

    Ob, you assert that picking up the ball before grounding it is in violation of 'without delay'. For this violation the receiving team has to kick the ball to the opponents from inside their 22 instead of having a scrum, and most likely ball retention, at the center.

    Yes, I believe that you have made a case for that. I also believe that this would show no empathy for the players or the game. It's a big "gotcha". This view is not consistent with what I read in your posts on this site where you demonstrate empathy for players and game.

    Regards a previous post of mine: Agreed, no need to say "prick".

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