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Thread: Time to touch down

      
  1. #21
    Player or Coach ChrisR's Avatar

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    Default Re: Time to touch down

    It does sound like we're splitting hairs. However, this isn't the only law that requires "No delay". See Law 20 Scrum.

    No Delay. As soon as the front rows have come together, the scrum half must throw in the
    ball without delay.


    Even before current scrum engagement management we never required the SH to feed the ball at the instance of engagement. We simply didn't want him dawdling.

    I see that same requirement for a kick-off in goal. Yes, pick it up, take a look but don't make it look like you're going to run it out then dot it down. If the ball stops in goal, don't stand there letting the ops run down the pitch then ground it.

    So as a referee I'd allow the time to look and make a decision. As a coach I'd expect the first player there to ground it immediately unless: The end of game hooter has sounded or the referee has indicated 'last play' in which case you'd better run it as the scrum center won't be awarded.
    Last edited by ChrisR; 19-07-15 at 23:07.

  2. #22

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    Default Re: Time to touch down

    Quote Originally Posted by Marauder View Post
    It does sound like we're splitting hairs. However, this isn't the only law that requires "No delay". See Law 20 Scrum.

    No Delay. As soon as the front rows have come together, the scrum half must throw in the
    ball without delay.


    Even before current scrum engagement management we never required the SH to feed the ball at the instance of engagement. We simply didn't want him dawdling.

    I see that same requirement for a kick-off in goal. Yes, pick it up, take a look but don't make it look like you're going to run it out then dot it down. If the ball stops in goal, don't stand there letting the ops run down the pitch then ground it.

    So as a referee I'd allow the time to look and make a decision. As a coach I'd expect the first player there to ground it immediately unless: The end of game hooter has sounded or the referee has indicated 'last play' in which case you'd better run it as the scrum center won't be awarded.
    I agree with all of this except this bit:

    If the ball stops in goal, don't stand there letting the ops run down the pitch then ground it.
    That is totally unenforcable.
    I, for one, like Roman numerals

  3. #23

    Advises in England
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    Default Re: Time to touch down

    Quote Originally Posted by Marauder View Post
    Yes, pick it up, take a look [...]I
    For me that is a delay. By all means take a look before you play the ball, but once you touch it you must ground it without any other actions or forego the options.

    Once you have the ball there is no point in taking a look unless you are thinking of doing something other than grounding it, so why should the referee allow it? It only makes his job harder.
    He trudg’d along unknowing what he sought,
    And whistled as he went, for want of thought.
    The Referee by John Dryden

  4. #24

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    Default Re: Time to touch down

    In my experience I have always let players have a look, what I don't want to see is any body movement to suggest s/he is trying something which s/he then decides against. Simples.

    Why don't players get told this sort of thing???????? Don't you all get fed up when you become the "on-field-educator"?

  5. #25

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    Default Re: Time to touch down

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackberry View Post
    In my experience I have always let players have a look, what I don't want to see is any body movement to suggest s/he is trying something which s/he then decides against. Simples.

    Why don't players get told this sort of thing???????? Don't you all get fed up when you become the "on-field-educator"?
    Does it happen that often?
    I, for one, like Roman numerals

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    Default Re: Time to touch down

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackberry View Post
    In my experience I have always let players have a look, what I don't want to see is any body movement to suggest s/he is trying something which s/he then decides against. Simples.

    Why don't players get told this sort of thing???????? Don't you all get fed up when you become the "on-field-educator"?
    Perhaps the various referee interpretations ???

    OB's hard line interpretation of "delay" could easy get you painted as a gotcha ref IMO, week in week out I don't see referees operating to that standard.
    Most seem to operate a 'don't take a stride' or 'decide within say 1/2 secs'.

    Notwithstanding these observations, in this cliphttps://www.youtube.com/watch?t=28&v=Z5SzVvpIVxoCJ introduces "immediately" [an alternative to delay] into his phraseology , however the player didn't have possession it merely bounced & touched him, so , if the ball strikes you have you delayed??? or does delay only happen if you're in possession?

    IMO, being adjudged to be delaying when not in possession/control opens another can of worms entirely

  7. #27

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    Default Re: Time to touch down

    What is the point of taking a look if you intend to touch down anyway?
    He trudg’d along unknowing what he sought,
    And whistled as he went, for want of thought.
    The Referee by John Dryden

  8. #28

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    Default Re: Time to touch down

    Quote Originally Posted by OB.. View Post
    For me that is a delay. By all means take a look before you play the ball, but once you touch it you must ground it without any other actions or forego the options.
    .
    I'd actually say the opposite -- for me if the defender reaches the ball, picks up the ball, glances up field and touches it down -- then that's 'without delay' and options.

    But if the ball comes to rest in the in goal, and the defender stands over it, doing nothing, waiting for the oppo to run up and force him to play it, and eventually when the oppo get close, quickly picks and dots it down, then I'd say that was delay.

  9. #29
    Player or Coach ChrisR's Avatar

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    Default Re: Time to touch down

    Why don't players get told this sort of thing???????? Don't you all get fed up when you become the "on-field-educator"?


    Blackberry, next time that you have some idle time start jotting down a coaching plan for a season. Figure in that you have two 2 hour (at most, mine run 11/2 hours) practices. Figure that you emphasize technical, unit and tactical skills and need to get all 15 plus subs on the same page. Exactly when do you fit in the rare occurrence of the ops kickoff going in goal?

    Yes, I would expect experienced members of the deep three to know how to handle these kinds of situations but consider this: We don't get complete agreement on refereeing this situation so you shouldn't expect coaches to arrive at an approach that will be consistent with how you would rule.

  10. #30

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    Default Re: Time to touch down

    Quote Originally Posted by Marauder View Post
    Why don't players get told this sort of thing???????? Don't you all get fed up when you become the "on-field-educator"?


    Blackberry, next time that you have some idle time start jotting down a coaching plan for a season. Figure in that you have two 2 hour (at most, mine run 11/2 hours) practices. Figure that you emphasize technical, unit and tactical skills and need to get all 15 plus subs on the same page. Exactly when do you fit in the rare occurrence of the ops kickoff going in goal?

    Yes, I would expect experienced members of the deep three to know how to handle these kinds of situations but consider this: We don't get complete agreement on refereeing this situation so you shouldn't expect coaches to arrive at an approach that will be consistent with how you would rule.
    A couple of points.

    First, though you only get 90 minutes with them, they have other time to learn and seek out learning opportunities. The time I spend physically training is only part of my preparation.

    Secondly, why not just tell them "don't run the risk. If you want the scrum back, just dot the ball down immediately. Don't do anything else at all." That removes any possibility of being on the wrong side of the referee decision.
    The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane.
    Marcus Aurelius

    Man may do as he will; he may not will what he wills
    Arthur Schopenhauer

    Tullamore Dew, the Afghan Wigs, and many, many strippers - how to get over your ex. How true.

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