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Thread: Flag up, ball not in touch

      
  1. #81

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    Default Re: Flag up, ball not in touch

    Well, there may be times (probably infrequently) where you legitimately overrule the TJ. I would avoid telling him/her that you will always go with their call.

    What are you trying to convey by saying it? That you have confidence in their ability. How about "As high as you can with the flag please and I will go with your call unless I have a good reason to do otherwise".
    I, for one, like Roman numerals

  2. #82

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    Default Re: Flag up, ball not in touch

    Quote Originally Posted by Dickie E View Post
    Well, there may be times (probably infrequently) where you legitimately overrule the TJ. I would avoid telling him/her that you will always go with their call.

    What are you trying to convey by saying it? That you have confidence in their ability. How about "As high as you can with the flag please and I will go with your call unless I have a good reason to do otherwise".
    Probably covers more bases, but sounds a bit technical at my grass roots level.


  3. #83

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    Default Re: Flag up, ball not in touch

    Quote Originally Posted by beckett50 View Post
    In the traditions of pantomime "Oh no he isn't" because he hasn't been properly appointed to the match by the organising authority.
    Let's not forget that referees need not be appointed by the organising authority in the form of the RFU or a competition committee - if the ref doesn't turn up and they grab me off the touchline and find me some kit to ref in, I'm the ref for the day, appointed by the club. I see no reason why the TJ shouldn't be treated the same

    Quote Originally Posted by beckett50 View Post
    They don't have the power of the Flag nor do they have the authority to be consulted on aspects of foul play etc.
    True enough - but neither did they have that in the years between 1892 and the recent introduction of AR's. That didn't mean that they weren't match officials. I suspect that examination of the discipline records in that period would throw up instances of abuse of an official where a player had harangued or assaulted a TJ.

    Quote Originally Posted by beckett50 View Post
    That is not to say that he shouldn't be accorded your protection should the crowd/players/coaches get on his back.
    Agreed
    Don't feed the pedant!

  4. #84

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    Default Re: Flag up, ball not in touch

    NB in this scenario we are talking about a TJ acting quite properly, and totally WITHIN his official power: to signal touch.
    (but making an honest mistake)



    Another complication of the 'play on' call is: what if the Touch Judge himself doesn't hear your call, and remains, quite correctly, standing on the line of touch with his flag raised high, waiting for you to notice him and to bring play back.

    Some players may have heard your play-on, but at the same time no doubt some players and spectators will now be noisily calling your attention to him... and you'll be engaging in a tricky dialogue "no, I saw him, overruled, play on' -- are you certain you'll be able to keep the players all playing while the TJ continues to stand there, flag resolutely raised? for how long?


    I just think that playing on when the flag is up could present quite a management challenge. Never say never ... but it's not an option that attracts me.

  5. #85

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    Default Re: Flag up, ball not in touch

    Quote Originally Posted by crossref View Post
    NB in this scenario we are talking about a TJ acting quite properly, and totally WITHIN his official power: to signal touch.
    (but making an honest mistake)
    Ball crosses the touchline, but is blown back in-field before touching anything. TJ raises his flag.

    I think it is important to correct this, or he will keep on doing it. Call "Play on" as loudly as you can, expecting players to play the whistle not the flag. Take the next opportunity to apologise to the TJ for having to over-rule him and explain why.

    If it does cause significant confusion, stop play, speak to the TJ as above but restart with a scrum under 20.4 (d). Speak to the captains as well.
    He trudg’d along unknowing what he sought,
    And whistled as he went, for want of thought.
    The Referee by John Dryden

  6. #86

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    Default Re: Flag up, ball not in touch

    Quote Originally Posted by Dixie View Post
    Let's not forget that referees need not be appointed by the organising authority in the form of the RFU or a competition committee - if the ref doesn't turn up and they grab me off the touchline and find me some kit to ref in, I'm the ref for the day, appointed by the club. I see no reason why the TJ shouldn't be treated the same
    The TJ gets his authority effectively by delegation from the referee, who can over-rule him if necessary. Generally speaking you will accept a TJ's judgement on where a kick went into touch etc, but I see no reason to accept law errors when you have a clear view..
    He trudg’d along unknowing what he sought,
    And whistled as he went, for want of thought.
    The Referee by John Dryden

  7. #87

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    Default Re: Flag up, ball not in touch

    Quote Originally Posted by OB.. View Post
    Ball crosses the touchline, but is blown back in-field before touching anything. TJ raises his flag.

    I think it is important to correct this, or he will keep on doing it. Call "Play on" as loudly as you can, expecting players to play the whistle not the flag. Take the next opportunity to apologise to the TJ for having to over-rule him and explain why.

    If it does cause significant confusion, stop play, speak to the TJ as above but restart with a scrum under 20.4 (d). Speak to the captains as well.
    I don't really disagree with this, but I guess our difference is that my expectation is that this WILL almost always cause significant confusion, and the game will have to stop.


    But luckily for everyone -- it's really very rare indeed for a TJ to raise his flag erroneously, with ref also in a positon to see that that has happened -- so this tricky situation hardly ever happens.

    It's much more common for a TJ to miss touch (usually from inattention and/or from being miles away from play), but happily that situation is easily dealt with by blowing the whistle to stop play -- which also gives you a suitable moment to remonstrate with the TJ :-)

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