Page 1 of 4 1234 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 36

Thread: Additional Trials - Law 16 'Breakdown'

      
  1. #1

    Referees in England


    Soc/Assoc
    --
    Grade
    Grassroots
    Join Date
    14 Sep 09
    Posts
    16,747
    Thanks (Received)
    127
    Likes (Received)
    1611

    Default Additional Trials - Law 16 'Breakdown'

    the WR press release at christmas announced three new trials to be performed in 2016 - on Laws 15 (tackle) 16 ('breakdown') and 17 (maul)

    The Law 16 Trial is interesting, especially the first sentence (1)

    (NB They refer to Law 16 as Breakdown, but in the Law book it is called Law 16 - Ruck),

    Law 16 - Breakdown

    1. A breakdown commences when at least one player from the attacking team is on their
    feet and over the ball which is on the ground (Tackled player, tackler + 1). At this
    point the offside line is created. (New definition)

    2. Only players acting as a half-back can play the ball with their hands (lift the ball out
    of the breakdown). They must be on their feet and on-side. They must subsequently
    run, pass or kick. (New 16.2 – Joining a breakdown). A half-back is any one player
    who is not part of the breakdown and behind the hindmost foot who is in a position to
    play the ball emerging from the breakdown. The hindmost foot will be the offside line
    for half-back players.

    3. Offside line at a ruck is the back foot + 1 metre. If the back foot of the hindmost
    player is on or behind the goal line, the offside line for the defending team is the goal
    line. To be policed by AR’s (New 16.5 (a) – Offside at the breakdown)

    4. All arriving players must come from an onside position (see 3 above) and can enter
    their side of the breakdown mid-point (no gate). Players must remain on their feet.
    (New 16.5 (c) )

    5. No players at breakdown can have hands on the ground beyond the ball, hold onto or
    lean on or have knees on players on the ground. Players off their feet sealing the ball
    will be penalized. Arriving players encouraged drive over/ past the ball (Existing
    16.4)

    6. Players must not handle the ball in a breakdown once the breakdown is formed. Once
    the breakdown contest is formed the player must release the ball. (New 16.4 – Other
    breakdown offences)

    7. The breakdown ends when the ball emerges or the ball is picked up (New 16.6 –
    Successful end to a breakdown)
    So

    1. A breakdown commences when at least one player from the attacking team is on their
    feet and over the ball which is on the ground (Tackled player, tackler + 1). At this
    point the offside line is created. (New definition)
    By 'attacking team' I think they must mean the team in possession (?)

    So this means that at a tackle a support runner arriving at the tackle immediately creates an offside line, all on his own... that's very similar to the trial of an automatic offside-line at every tackle which they had to abandon really quickly.

    It means that when a ball carrier breaks the defensive line and is tackled by the full back, his support runner arriving at the tackle creates an offside line that renders every single opponent offside... useful.
    Last edited by crossref; 04-01-16 at 10:01.

  2. #2
    Player or Coach ChrisR's Avatar

    Soc/Assoc
    None
    Grade
    Select Grade
    Join Date
    14 Jul 10
    Posts
    3,189
    Thanks (Received)
    31
    Likes (Received)
    306

    Default Re: Additional Trials - Law 16 'Breakdown'

    I suspect that this is an attempt to head off the 'no ruck' development last year.

  3. #3

    Referees in England
    Dixie's Avatar

    Soc/Assoc
    Retired from Berkshire
    Grade
    8
    Join Date
    26 Oct 06
    Posts
    12,769
    Thanks (Received)
    30
    Likes (Received)
    328

    Default Re: Additional Trials - Law 16 'Breakdown'

    Is it intended to be the death-knell of traditional #7 play as perfected by Sir Richie?

    1. A breakdown commences when at least one player from the attacking team is on their
    feet and over the ball which is on the ground (Tackled player, tackler + 1). At this
    point the offside line is created. (New definition)

    6. Players must not handle the ball in a breakdown once the breakdown is formed. Once
    the breakdown contest is formed the player must release the ball. (New 16.4 – Other
    breakdown offences)


    So White 12 tackles Black 12. First arrival is Black 7 (surprise surprise). By arriving, Black 7 has commenced ("formed") the breakdown. Consequently, Black 7 cannot touch ("handle") the ball at any time after his arrival. The defending 7, on the other hand, is free to do so if he can get there first.

    The new ruck offside line is ambiguous - what is meant by "back foot + 1m"? Looked at from the player's perspective, the offside line is now half way up the ruck, as the offside line is not "back foot minus 1m". Notwithstanding the apparently incomplete text regarding the goal line, I suspect this is not what was intended - the intent is surely to place the offside line 1m back from the rear foot, not 1m forward of it. If so, we need a new offside line for the half back. One such is created at the hindmost foot for the breakdown, but as soon as that turns into a ruck by a defender grabbing an attacker, the half-back has to retire `1m - making it hard for him to distribute!

    Equally, in the absence of any half-back offside line, no rucker can pick and drive. If he's unbound from the ruck he's offside, being less than 1m behind the back foot. If he's still bound he's handling in the ruck. So no forward pickup, and the half back is too far back to pick up - sounds like a great game!
    Don't feed the pedant!

  4. #4
    Player or Coach ChrisR's Avatar

    Soc/Assoc
    None
    Grade
    Select Grade
    Join Date
    14 Jul 10
    Posts
    3,189
    Thanks (Received)
    31
    Likes (Received)
    306

    Default Re: Additional Trials - Law 16 'Breakdown'

    A half-back is any one player
    who is not part of the breakdown and behind the hindmost foot who is in a position to
    play the ball emerging from the breakdown. The hindmost foot will be the offside line
    for half-back players.


    Here's the part you skipped over from item 2.

    The part about pick-'n-go's is interesting coz I think it will increase the ploy. The latcher will have to start 1m back but the picker has an extra meter of uncontested ground. Not sure if it's worth it but for teams that use it they'll get a bonus meter each go.

  5. #5

    Referees in England


    Soc/Assoc
    --
    Grade
    Grassroots
    Join Date
    14 Sep 09
    Posts
    16,747
    Thanks (Received)
    127
    Likes (Received)
    1611

    Default Re: Additional Trials - Law 16 'Breakdown'

    Quote Originally Posted by Marauder View Post

    The part about pick-'n-go's is interesting coz I think it will increase the ploy. The latcher will have to start 1m back but the picker has an extra meter of uncontested ground. Not sure if it's worth it but for teams that use it they'll get a bonus meter each go.
    so the rearmost player in the ruck will detach and become the latcher, so we refs will have to watch for him being properly bound.

  6. #6

    Referees in England
    Dixie's Avatar

    Soc/Assoc
    Retired from Berkshire
    Grade
    8
    Join Date
    26 Oct 06
    Posts
    12,769
    Thanks (Received)
    30
    Likes (Received)
    328

    Default Re: Additional Trials - Law 16 'Breakdown'

    Quote Originally Posted by Marauder View Post
    A half-back is any one player who is not part of the breakdown and behind the hindmost foot who is in a position to play the ball emerging from the breakdown. The hindmost foot will be the offside line for half-back players.


    Here's the part you skipped over from item 2.
    Marauder, I didn't skip over it - I referenced it by saying:

    One such is created at the hindmost foot for the breakdown, but as soon as that turns into a ruck by a defender grabbing an attacker, the half-back has to retire 1m - making it hard for him to distribute!


    It seems to me that the Breakdown is a new phase which (if it exists at all) will typically be a short phase between Tackle and Ruck. So the tackle takes place - nothing new here. Attacker arrives - breakdown commences, establishing offside lines (for the half-back at the hindmost foot). As soon as the attacker is grabbed by an opponent, a ruck forms (existing law) with the offside line immediately moving 1m (direction uncertain). If it moves 1m behind the back foot, the half-back who was onside at the breakdown now becomes offside, because the Breakdown has finished and a Ruck has formed - and there does not seem to be a halfback-only offside line at the Ruck.
    Don't feed the pedant!

  7. #7
    Player or Coach ChrisR's Avatar

    Soc/Assoc
    None
    Grade
    Select Grade
    Join Date
    14 Jul 10
    Posts
    3,189
    Thanks (Received)
    31
    Likes (Received)
    306

    Default Re: Additional Trials - Law 16 'Breakdown'

    Unfortunately this trial was not presented in the form of fully documented law amendments. Common sense suggests that the SH offside at breakdown will convey to the scrum.

  8. #8

    Referees in England
    Dixie's Avatar

    Soc/Assoc
    Retired from Berkshire
    Grade
    8
    Join Date
    26 Oct 06
    Posts
    12,769
    Thanks (Received)
    30
    Likes (Received)
    328

    Default Re: Additional Trials - Law 16 'Breakdown'

    Quote Originally Posted by Marauder View Post
    Unfortunately this trial was not presented in the form of fully documented law amendments. Common sense suggests that the SH offside at breakdown will convey to the ruck.
    Agreed - but with a half-back already in place, the pick'n'drive is outlawed due to the 1m gap between the new ruck offside line and the ruck itself - unless there can be more than one halfback? Equally, how can anyone join the ruck without first being offside? This smacks of a trial provision that hasn't been subjected to any quality control at all - very poor for a World Governing Body. They seem to assume that if it's better than FIFA, it's all good!
    Don't feed the pedant!

  9. #9

    Referees in New Zealand
    Ian_Cook's Avatar

    Soc/Assoc
    Retired player and referee
    Grade
    Level 2
    Join Date
    12 Jul 05
    Posts
    13,129
    Thanks (Received)
    99
    Likes (Received)
    1406

    Default Re: Additional Trials - Law 16 'Breakdown'

    Quote Originally Posted by Dixie View Post
    Is it intended to be the death-knell of traditional #7 play as perfected by Sir Richie?

    1. A breakdown commences when at least one player from the attacking team is on their
    feet and over the ball which is on the ground (Tackled player, tackler + 1). At this
    point the offside line is created. (New definition)

    6. Players must not handle the ball in a breakdown once the breakdown is formed. Once
    the breakdown contest is formed the player must release the ball. (New 16.4 – Other
    breakdown offences)


    So White 12 tackles Black 12. First arrival is Black 7 (surprise surprise). By arriving, Black 7 has commenced ("formed") the breakdown. Consequently, Black 7 cannot touch ("handle") the ball at any time after his arrival. The defending 7, on the other hand, is free to do so if he can get there first.
    No. All that it changes is that it no longer requires players from each team to form a ruck

    When Black 7 arrives at the the tackle, be can still go for the ball, because Law 16.4 (b) has not changed. Black 7 will form the "breakdown" simultaneously with his arrival and attempt to jackle.
    "Never underestimate the power of the Internet to lend unwarranted credibility to the colossally misinformed"
    - Jay "Utah" Windley

  10. #10

    Referees in England
    Nigib's Avatar

    Soc/Assoc
    Oxfordshire
    Grade
    Level 7
    Join Date
    02 Jul 07
    Posts
    340
    Thanks (Received)
    2
    Likes (Received)
    68

    Default Re: Additional Trials - Law 16 'Breakdown'

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian_Cook View Post
    No. All that it changes is that it no longer requires players from each team to form a ruck

    When Black 7 arrives at the the tackle, be can still go for the ball, because Law 16.4 (b) has not changed. Black 7 will form the "breakdown" simultaneously with his arrival and attempt to jackle.
    Surely there would need to be a difference between 'commences' and 'formed' to enable jackling - I can't see that as the intent from the words as they are writ here. I'm inferring that the breakdown in new definition starts with one player over the ball, and a ruck would then form when an oppo player is in physical contact with them. No room for jackling afaics.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •