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Thread: Early Engage

      
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    Default Early Engage

    CROUCH - BIND - SET!

    As I explain in my PMB every week - 'I want a definite controlled gap between the bind and the set call, please don't go early' - but obviously they do go early. So in the first instance I will usually blow the whistle and call a reset, and then reinforce the point. Often this will fix the problem at that particular scrum.

    The problem then becomes that it keeps happening throughout the game, and I find myself resetting a lot of scrums without sanction. But here's my issue - if both teams are pre-engaging at the same time, sort of leaning onto eachother, which one do I sanction?

    I am not willing to let them go when they please, they are capable of controlling it as they have shown in earlier scrums, but how do I award a free kick either way when they are both engaging early simultaneously?!

    Thanks in advance,
    SD

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    Default Re: Early Engage

    Ideally, yes, we want a gap and then shoulders together on SET (and that is in my brief). But down at L10/11 where I ref, many (most?) front rows are incapable of this even at the start of the match, let alone when they get tired. Thus if they both come together on bind and there is nothing else going on, I just let them get on with it - everybody wants a match. If it is continually only one team, then they get pinged.

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    Default Re: Early Engage

    Quote Originally Posted by SmeejDad View Post
    how do I award a free kick either way when they are both engaging early simultaneously?!

    Thanks in advance,
    SD
    esepcially if they FK award is then taken as a scrum anyway.

    didds

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    Default Re: Early Engage

    "Ear to Ear" at the bind, but as Wedgie said (no disrespected) I wouldn't worry too much at your level, as long as no side are getting an advantage from it!

    That said, if you're saying you want it in your PMB you're going to loose a bit of cred if you don't enforce it, might be worth leaving it out, but using it as you move up the levels?
    Last edited by TheBFG; 15-12-16 at 13:12.
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    Default Re: Early Engage

    It will carry on as long as you let it.

    If you tell them at the PMB that it must happen, then don't enforce it, you will lose authority. I say that I expect to see shoulders apart on the bind, which enables me to let things go if they are obviously knackered. Another approach is to stop the scrum, encourage them to do it and suggest they put heads against shoulder on bind.

    If you really can't tell who went first, you have to let it go or make a decision to ping one or other; be careful not to do that close to the goal-line :-)

    A saving grace is that 97% of the time you can see someone go first; the rest of the time no-one can see anyway, so can't question your decision, and both front rows will know they've gone early so can't grumble.

    Stick to Ask/Tell/Penalise - ping early on and they are less likely to try it on continually. I find it also helps if you tell them it's a safety issue which could directly affect them if things go wrong.

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    Default Re: Early Engage

    I suspect that if you say "I think Red was fractionally first; if Red engages early again it'll be FK to Blue" then you'll know that the next early engage (if any) will come from Blue

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    Default Re: Early Engage

    I find that early in the game the gap is kept but as the game progresses that gap disappears and there is shoulder contact at the bind stage.

    As long as there is no pushing and everyone is square, and no team gets an advantage, this lack of a gap actually a good thing. If the idea behind changing the cadence to Crouch-Bind-Set was to eliminate the hit then having some pre-contact before the set makes it even more difficult to have a "hit" at the scrum.

    I would look at the result of the scrum engagement and if it is square and stable, then get on with it. There's no reason to reset the scrum just to be pedantic.

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    Default Re: Early Engage

    Quote Originally Posted by Rich_NL View Post
    I suspect that if you say "I think Red was fractionally first; if Red engages early again it'll be FK to Blue" then you'll know that the next early engage (if any) will come from Blue
    but if you saw it 'fractionally first' then you surely should ping it? I use the 'saw you move at the same time' approach as it warns you are looking, but didn't let anyone get away with it.

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    Default Re: Early Engage

    Quote Originally Posted by Nigib View Post
    I use the 'saw you move at the same time' approach as it warns you are looking, but didn't let anyone get away with it.
    except presumably you let both of them get away with it as you cant FK both sides at the same time? Or you FK one side amnd lety thekm know their oppo did exactly the same as them but have won a FK (FWTW!)



    didds

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    Default Re: Early Engage

    Quote Originally Posted by didds View Post
    esepcially if they FK award is then taken as a scrum anyway.
    It won't be an issue if the FK is awarded to the weaker side. Eg if Red are being pulverised at the scrum and are given a FK - their hardly going to opt for another scrum are they!

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