View Poll Results: Bonus point, what do you think?

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  • Yes, it will be an improvement.

    8 38.10%
  • No, if it's not broken, don't fix it.

    13 61.90%
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Thread: [RBS 6 Nations] Bonus point trial in 2017

      
  1. #31

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    Default Re: [RBS 6 Nations] Bonus point trial in 2017

    Quote Originally Posted by L'irlandais View Post
    Why not introduce a McMahon system tournament for 8 teams (as suggested elsewhere on RRF) Then the four strongest Nations play each other, and the four weakest Nations play each other. 1-4 from each pool play their opposite number.
    I'd not previously come across McMahon, but am familiar with Swiss tournaments. I can't see any kind of Swiss working on a home and away basis, because of travel/accommodation bookings and such. There are no pools in Swiss, nor in McMahon as far as I can see. The only difference is on initial ranking for the bottom teams, which is somewhat ok for #6 of 6N, but potentially harsh for the #5, particularly in terms of gate revenue. That said, a Swiss system only takes three rounds to get "a" winner when there are eight teams competing.

    No country wants to lose out on matches against the others, particularly home matches for Home Nations and France. However, team sides losing players don't want even more matches.

    So pools it has to be, somehow. How? A double four nations, isles and continent, using the middle weekends for matches that don't count towards competition.

    Weekends 1 & 2 for the home nations, would be against two of the other home nations, on a rotating basis, one home and one away, in a six-year cycle. France and Italy would host the top other continental countries one year for these first two weekends, and play each other on the second weekend, alternating home and away in a four year cycle.

    In week 3 - currently the first rest weekend - the home nations would play their final home nations match on a 'friendly' basis, but still very much for ancient trophies, and perhaps as a tie-breaker if bonus points don't suffice.

    The schedule for weeks 4-7 would depend on results from the previous years, on a 12-year cycle, with weekend 5 being a special case in which the French and Italians would compete with the two lowest-ranked home nations on a friendly

    Obviously this isn't a complete proposal, but the essence of it is to split the competition in to four Swiss-style pools that each have four teams and hence only two rounds, which are played in weeks 1&2 of the previous year and weeks 6&7 of the current year. Week 4 remains preserved so that the current six nations are likely to play each other competitively. The greatest weakness of the system is that France probably only plays three of the Home Nations, but it - like Italy - is guarantueed two home fixtures which in the case of France could be used to give promising young internationals a place in the starting side. Both are guarantueed their place in the top 8 for all time, but neither can pick a B team in the opening weeks either.

    It would make sense to have the final two weeks end in #1v#2 and then #1v#1 of the different pools, which makes week 4 be #1v#3 and #2v#4 cross-pool matches. Calling them H and C for home and continent, that makes week 4 be 1Hv3C, 2Hv4C, 3Hv1C and 4Hv2C; week 6 becomes 1Hv2C, 2Hv1C, 3Hv4C and 4Hv3C, and finally week 7 be 1Hv1C etc. Of course this makes being #1H likely to play France last....

    Although this isn't a fully serious proposal either, it could be run for a transitional period of 12 or even 6 years before transitioning to a Europe-wide system of 4-country groups with relegation and promotion on a play-off basis, and either a home-and-away structure of 6 matches or traditional matches such as the Culcutta Cup being played as pre-tournament friendlies.

  2. #32

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    Default Re: [RBS 6 Nations] Bonus point trial in 2017

    I hadn't heard of McMahon either, but it turns out I had re-invented it for use in local rugby. However the logistics of international rugby mean you have to plan too far ahead for such a system to be practicable.

    Any pool system needs to be seeded to prevent the best teams all being in one pool, and logistics again might get in the way.

    It would be nice if we could have a relegation system with a playoff between the bottom team and the challenger (to prevent flip-flopping). I suspect that isn't practicable either.

    A quick check found 4 matches between Italy and Georgia (1998, 2000, 2003, 2010). Italy won all four times, but things may have changed now.
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  3. #33

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    Default Re: [RBS 6 Nations] Bonus point trial in 2017

    IF (that's a big if, not a typo) international rugby were the be-all and end-all, even IF only for a limited number of matches, then groups of 4 would make sense, more than once a year.

    I'm more interested now though in the reinvention of a format of Swiss. Did it last long?

  4. #34

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    Default Re: [RBS 6 Nations] Bonus point trial in 2017

    Quote Originally Posted by OB.. View Post
    It would be nice if we could have a relegation system with a playoff between the bottom team and the challenger (to prevent flip-flopping). I suspect that isn't practicable either.
    It would add another game to what for most if not all players is an already full calendar. Fort the players involved it impacts their clubs more than anything who now lose them for another week (or two for training etc?) .

    then there is the possible impact on whatever plans go into place for 12 months hence or even longer - Im thinking logistics and the knock on effects into the tourism trade here, but I may be over egging the pudding here of course.

    didds

  5. #35

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    Default Re: [RBS 6 Nations] Bonus point trial in 2017

    Added to which while it doesn't address the issues of the Italy situation, nor aid development to the upper tier of the likes of Georgia, I doubt there is any interest from the supporters or the nations already involved, to change things. The 5/6N has its own cachet, and altering its format and coverage drastically would I feel be akin to throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

    I have no ideas of how to overcome the Italy/Georgia scenarios I confess. The nearest I get to is OBs suggestion, which we have identified is probably unworkable.

    didds

  6. #36
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    Default Re: [RBS 6 Nations] Bonus point trial in 2017

    I can see a playoff between the bottom of the Six Nations and the top of the second tier Six Nations potentially working well. I think there should be some mechanism to allow teams access to the Six Nations - growing the game and all that.

    TBH, I think the problem is Italy - they're probably somewhere between the two leagues. I realise they haven't played Georgia recently, but looking at other results I get the impression Italy would win comfortably (Georgia were thumped by a second-string Scotland - admittedly, I don't know how strong a Georgia team that was).

    Perhaps they could defer the whole relegation/expansion question by playing a post-Six Nations friendly against Georgia (or whoever wins the second tier) - if Italy dish out a hammering, the whole question will go away for several years and if it is a close game (or Georgia win), it will expedite discussions.

    Perhaps they don't want to take the risk!
    Last edited by DocY; 25-01-17 at 11:01.

  7. #37

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    Default Re: [RBS 6 Nations] Bonus point trial in 2017

    Quote Originally Posted by DocY View Post
    Georgia were thumped by a second-string Scotland - admittedly, I don't know how strong a Georgia team that was).
    This is a list of the 15 Georgian players that I know of who play in the French Top 14. There are likely to be even more in the ProD2 and I don't know how many more play the the Pro12 and/or AP

    Karlen Asieshvili (Brive)
    Jaba Bregvadze (Stade Toulousain)
    Levan Chilachava (Toulon)
    Mamuka Gorgodze (Montpellier)
    Giorgi Jgenti (Montpellier)
    Vasil Kakovin (Brive, Stade Toulousain)
    Davit Khinchagishvili (Brive)
    Viktor Koleilishvili (Clermont)
    Davit Kubriashvili (Montpellier)
    Konstantin Mikautadze (Toulon)
    Mikheil Nariashvili (Montpellier)
    Anton Peikrishvili (Agen)
    Goderzi Shvelidze (Clermont)
    Zurab Zhvania (Stade Français)
    Davit Zirakashvili (Clermont)

    Looking at the team lists... http://www.autumn-internationals.co....v-georgia.html ...there appear to be quite a few off that list present, so the Georgian team looks close to full strength, however, I don't think you can really call that a second-string Scotland team either.
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  8. #38
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    Default Re: [RBS 6 Nations] Bonus point trial in 2017

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian_Cook View Post
    I don't think you can really call that a second-string Scotland team either.
    Fair point! My memory let me down!

  9. #39

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    Default Re: [RBS 6 Nations] Bonus point trial in 2017

    The issue with that friendly proposal is that Italy wold have nothing to gain really over the status quo, but everything to lose. Why wold they play it?

    And all those club contracted players now have to find time away from their clubs .Which is the issue with the play-off game scenario also more generally speaking.


    didds
    Last edited by didds; 25-01-17 at 13:01.

  10. #40

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    Post Re: [RBS 6 Nations] Bonus point trial in 2017

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian_Cook View Post
    This is a list of the 15 Georgian players that I know of who play in the French Top 14. There are likely to be even more in the ProD2 and I don't know how many more play the the Pro12 and/or AP

    Karlen Asieshvili (Brive)
    Jaba Bregvadze (Stade Toulousain)
    Levan Chilachava (Toulon)
    Mamuka Gorgodze (Montpellier)
    Giorgi Jgenti (Montpellier)
    Vasil Kakovin (Brive, Stade Toulousain)
    Davit Khinchagishvili (Brive) @ Bayonne
    Viktor Koleilishvili (Clermont)
    Davit Kubriashvili (Montpellier)
    Konstantin Mikautadze (Toulon)
    Mikheil Nariashvili (Montpellier)
    Anton Peikrishvili (Agen)
    Goderzi Shvelidze (Clermont)
    Zurab Zhvania (Stade Français)
    Davit Zirakashvili (Clermont)

    Looking at the team lists... [URL]...
    The situation is a little different this season, some players you've listed have either left or changed clubs. Although I am still missing some Georgians of my list :

    Top 14 (23)
    Davit Khinchagishvili (Bayonne)
    Kakha Asieshvili (Brive)
    Soso Bekoshvili (Brive)
    Vasil Lobzhanidze (Brive)
    Davit Zirakashvili (Clermont)
    Otari Giorgadze (Clermont)
    Viktor Kolelishvili (Clermont)
    Lekso Kaulashvili (La Rochelle)
    Giorgi Javakhia (Lyon OU)
    Zaza Navrozashvili (Lyon OU)
    Tornike Mataradze (Lyon OU)
    Shalva Mamukashvili (Montpellier)
    Gagi Bazadze (Montpellier)
    Davit Kubriashvili (Montpellier)
    Mikheil Nariashvili (Montpellier)
    Shalva Mamukashvili (Montpellier)
    Konstantine Mikautadze (Montpellier)
    Davit Papavadze (Stade Français)
    Zura Zhvania (Stade Français)
    Giorgi Melikidze (Stade Français)
    Badri Alkhazashvili (Toulon)
    Levan Chilachava (Toulon)
    Mamuka Gorgodze (Toulon)
    Vasil Kakovin (Toulouse)

    Pro D2 (21)
    Vokhtangi Akhobadze (Agen)
    Giorgi Margvelani (Agen)
    Giorgi Tetrashvili (Agen)
    Tamaz Mchedlidze (Agen)
    Giorgi Zakashvili (Aix-en-Provence)
    Khvicha Bujashvili (Albi)
    Beka Sheklashvili (Albi)
    Nikoloz Khatiashvili (Aurillac)
    Giorgi Sharashidze (Aurillac)
    Levan Datunashvili (Aurillac)
    Merab Sharikadze (Aurillac)
    Lasha Lomidze (Bézier)
    Giorgi Natsarashvili (US Carcassonne)
    Elizbar Kuparadze (Dax)
    Tariel Ratianidze (Narbonne)
    Irakli Mirtskhulava (Oyonnax)
    Giorgi Vepkhvadze (Oyonnax)
    Lasha Tavberidze (Soyaux Angoulême)
    Shalva Sutiashvili (Soyaux Angoulême)
    Vakhtang Maisuradze (Vannes)
    Archil Bezhiashvili (Vannes)

    Fédérale 1 (at least half a dozen)
    Gagi Bazadze (Lille)
    Georgi Chkaidze (Lille)
    Beka Gigashvili (Chambéry)
    Beka Bitsadze (Chambéry)
    David Balanchivadze (Vienne)
    Simon Maisuradze (Avenir valencien)
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