Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 25

Thread: Refuse to engage, pull rucking opponent off feet

      
  1. #11

    Referees in England
    Phil E's Avatar

    Soc/Assoc
    Staffordshire and Royal Navy
    Grade
    8
    Join Date
    22 Jan 08
    Posts
    15,000
    Thanks (Received)
    177
    Likes (Received)
    1382
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default Re: Refuse to engage, pull rucking opponent off feet

    Quote Originally Posted by Dickie E View Post
    this could be tricky to manage because you now have a red player on the ground on the wrong side of the ball, through no fault of his own.

    Do you ask him to roll away? That seems a bit unfair.

    As blue players now arrive, the red player is likely to get stepped on. So you could blow it up as unplayable but, again, that seems unfair to red.

    I think I'd be inclined to penalise blue immediately.

    It is a similar situation where the red jackler is finely balanced as he attempts to pick up the ball. A small amount of weight from arriving blue player forces him to over-balance and go to ground. Is there an offence here?
    I did say "unless it becomes material".

    If Red win the ball straight off then we can play on and I will speak to the Blue player at an appropriate time about his appealing and collapsing. You are citing instances when it has become a material offence, so needs to be dealt with.

    Follow my Award Winning blog The Rugby Ref


  2. #12

    Referees in New Zealand
    Ian_Cook's Avatar

    Soc/Assoc
    Retired player and referee
    Grade
    Level 2
    Join Date
    12 Jul 05
    Posts
    13,370
    Thanks (Received)
    113
    Likes (Received)
    1530

    Default Re: Refuse to engage, pull rucking opponent off feet

    Quote Originally Posted by didds View Post
    * tackled player lays ball back and immediately red support dives on it ~90 cm from tackled player. Now you've two bodies on the floor with the ball, one between the ball+red and blue oppo. original tackled player can;t get out of the way in time before blue arrive and try to get to 2nd red + ball. Its not a dive on the ball as it emerges from a ruck (!) as no ruck has yet formed.

    etc

    didds

    This is PK against the red player who dived on it... take your pick which Law you want to use

    15.6 OTHER PLAYERS
    (a) After a tackle, all other players must be on their feet when they play the ball. Players are on their feet if no other part of their body is supported by the ground or players on the ground.
    Sanction: Penalty kick

    By diving on it, he is playing the ball off his feet at the tackle.

    15.7 FORBIDDEN PRACTICES
    (c) No player may fall on or over the players lying on the ground after a tackle with the ball between or near to them.
    Sanction: Penalty kick

    General Definitions
    Near: Within one metre.
    "You can Google for information, but you can't Google for understanding"
    - Jay "Utah" Windley

  3. #13

    Resident Club Coach
    didds's Avatar

    Soc/Assoc
    N/A
    Grade
    Club Coach
    Join Date
    27 Jan 04
    Posts
    10,022
    Thanks (Received)
    76
    Likes (Received)
    1029

    Default Re: Refuse to engage, pull rucking opponent off feet

    that's fair enough Ian.
    So if the tackled player throws the ball away wildly - say 15m - nobody call dive on it subsequently - under 15.6?

    I am merely checking


    didds
    Last edited by didds; 09-02-17 at 11:02.

  4. #14
    Moderator Attention - New Usergroup Required

    Soc/Assoc
    LSRFUR
    Grade
    5
    Join Date
    22 Dec 15
    Posts
    226
    Thanks (Received)
    3
    Likes (Received)
    82

    Default Re: Refuse to engage, pull rucking opponent off feet

    Quote Originally Posted by didds View Post
    that's fair enough Ian.
    So if the tackled player throws the ball away wildly - say 15m - nobody call dive on it subsequently - under 15.6?

    I am merely checking


    didds
    I would suggest the law 15.7 is supposed to be read as...

    (What is forbidden?) No player may fall on or over the players lying on the ground
    (when?) ...after a tackle with the ball between or near to them

    So the law prohibits a player falling on or over those players lying on the ground (near to or around the ball), rather than diving on the ball itself. I appreciate they will be close ( <1m ), but you could still dive on the ball without falling on or over the player on the floor.

    As long as a ruck hadn't former in which case, over to Angus Garnder...

    I guess it would depend where the ball is in relation to the tackle. Anywhere outside 1m is no longer near the tackle so you can dive on it, otherwise you are going off feet at the tackle against 15.6(a) as Ian highlighted.

  5. #15

    Referees in England
    Wedgie's Avatar

    Soc/Assoc
    Kent
    Grade
    10
    Join Date
    11 Oct 11
    Posts
    204
    Thanks (Received)
    4
    Likes (Received)
    26

    Default Re: Refuse to engage, pull rucking opponent off feet

    OP is similar to my posts #36 and #38 here. I more often see it in U16/17 rugby than senior rugby and often see it as dangerous as the red player is face/head/neck planted into the turf.

  6. #16
    Player or Coach ChrisR's Avatar

    Soc/Assoc
    None
    Grade
    Select Grade
    Join Date
    14 Jul 10
    Posts
    3,227
    Thanks (Received)
    33
    Likes (Received)
    321

    Default Re: Refuse to engage, pull rucking opponent off feet

    From the OP:


    1. First blue defender arrives, stops sharply about a half-metre short of red support, does not bind to create a formal ruck, but puts one hand on red's collar and pulls him forward.
    2. Red, expecting impact and a ruck, has his bodyweight forward and so tumbles over easily.
    3. Blue then steps in to breakdown as if to ruck, and he and arriving blue 9 begin complaining about red being off their feet


    Although collapsing the ruck is a legit call I would consider the parts in red bring into play the following:

    10.2 Unfair Play

    (d) A player must not commit any act that may lead the match officials to consider that that player was subject to foul play or any other type of infringement committed by an opponent.
    Sanction: Penalty kick

    10.2(d) is an important and potent law and should take precedence over a technical violation.

  7. #17

    Referees in Scotland
    Pinky's Avatar

    Soc/Assoc
    Edinburgh Rugby Referees Society
    Grade
    8
    Join Date
    09 Apr 10
    Posts
    1,507
    Thanks (Received)
    19
    Likes (Received)
    163

    Default Re: Refuse to engage, pull rucking opponent off feet

    For me, grabbing by the collar and I am thinking penalty against the grabber for foul play. If in the OP circumstances you thought that too harsh, then simply blow for unplayable and give the put-in to red as they had possession when the ruck was formed and were presumably going forward. If blue were pulling them over the rusk then they cannot claim they were going forward in the ruck.

  8. #18

    Referees in New Zealand
    Ian_Cook's Avatar

    Soc/Assoc
    Retired player and referee
    Grade
    Level 2
    Join Date
    12 Jul 05
    Posts
    13,370
    Thanks (Received)
    113
    Likes (Received)
    1530

    Default Re: Refuse to engage, pull rucking opponent off feet

    Quote Originally Posted by didds View Post
    that's fair enough Ian.
    So if the tackled player throws the ball away wildly - say 15m - nobody call dive on it subsequently - under 15.6?

    I am merely checking


    didds
    Nope. If the tackler throws the ball away 15m, the ball isn't "near" the tackle, its a loose ball in open play so Law 14 applies, anyone can fall on it.
    "You can Google for information, but you can't Google for understanding"
    - Jay "Utah" Windley

  9. #19

    Referees in Australia
    Dickie E's Avatar

    Soc/Assoc
    VRRA
    Grade
    Level 2
    Join Date
    19 Jan 07
    Posts
    12,690
    Thanks (Received)
    120
    Likes (Received)
    1443

    Default Re: Refuse to engage, pull rucking opponent off feet

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil E View Post
    I did say "unless it becomes material".
    I acknowledge that. My point is that 90% of the time it will be material.
    I, for one, like Roman numerals

  10. #20

    Referees in Australia
    Dickie E's Avatar

    Soc/Assoc
    VRRA
    Grade
    Level 2
    Join Date
    19 Jan 07
    Posts
    12,690
    Thanks (Received)
    120
    Likes (Received)
    1443

    Default Re: Refuse to engage, pull rucking opponent off feet

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisR View Post
    From the OP:


    1. First blue defender arrives, stops sharply about a half-metre short of red support, does not bind to create a formal ruck, but puts one hand on red's collar and pulls him forward.
    2. Red, expecting impact and a ruck, has his bodyweight forward and so tumbles over easily.
    3. Blue then steps in to breakdown as if to ruck, and he and arriving blue 9 begin complaining about red being off their feet


    Although collapsing the ruck is a legit call I would consider the parts in red bring into play the following:

    10.2 Unfair Play

    (d) A player must not commit any act that may lead the match officials to consider that that player was subject to foul play or any other type of infringement committed by an opponent.
    Sanction: Penalty kick

    10.2(d) is an important and potent law and should take precedence over a technical violation.
    I'd suggest that this is a misinterpretation of 10.2(d).
    I, for one, like Roman numerals

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •