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Thread: Downward pressure / in control

      
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    Default Downward pressure / in control

    Debate rising again possibly after incident in the France-Scotland game... comments about control/downward pressure in the act of scoring...

    My understanding - if player is holding the ball, they only need to maintain contact with the ball while placing it into in goal (no "downward pressure required", no mention of control in 22.1(a) ). If the ball is in-goal on the floor then we do need downward pressure, but no control needed.

    Does Nigel Owens get it wrong here? Can anyone give a definitive answer to the above.

    1hr 10 minutes in...
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-uni...stings-listen/

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    Default Re: Downward pressure / in control

    "Scotland legend Gavin Hastings"

    Hogg is multiple times the player Hastings ever was. Irvine was a better FB than GH - and I consider AI a show pony.

    didds

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    Default Re: Downward pressure / in control

    Quote Originally Posted by Thunderhorse1986 View Post
    Debate rising again possibly after incident in the France-Scotland game... comments about control/downward pressure in the act of scoring...

    My understanding - if player is holding the ball, they only need to maintain contact with the ball while placing it into in goal (no "downward pressure required", no mention of control in 22.1(a) ). If the ball is in-goal on the floor then we do need downward pressure, but no control needed.

    Does Nigel Owens get it wrong here? Can anyone give a definitive answer to the above.

    1hr 10 minutes in...
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-uni...stings-listen/
    As I understand it - NO gets confused here. You do NOT need downward pressure if carrying the ball. All the ball needss to do is touch the grass. I agree that "control" is needed - which I would say means the BC is holding the ball.

    ball on the ground already - downward pressure but control is NOT needed.

    didds

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    Default Re: Downward pressure / in control

    The laws don't say you have to be in control, just that you have to touch the ball down.

    The way incidents like the one in question have been being refereed recently has been that if the player didn't obviously lose contact with the ball before it hit the ground, it should be a try.

    It's a bugbear of mine. For me, a try should be clear and obvious and the absence of a clear and obvious infringement shouldn't down grade the requirements to award the try.

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    Default Re: Downward pressure / in control

    After a number of debates around tries scored/not scored like this example during Super Rugby, I am fairly sure the refs came to an agreed approach.
    If a player has possession of the ball, he maintains possession until the ball is no longer touching him. As soon as there is daylight he's lost possession and if the ball is travelling forward then it's a lost forward. The player cannot regain possession unless catching (not just touching) the ball.
    If you reach out and never lose contact, despite maybe only having a finger on the side then the try is scored (if the ball touches ground).
    Seems fairly clear and fits in with other interpretations around possession.
    It can look funny, but usually because an uneducated commentator is blathering on about 'control' and 'downward pressure', neither of which are required in this situation.

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    Default Re: Downward pressure / in control

    It can look funny, but usually because an uneducated commentator is blathering on about 'control' and 'downward pressure', neither of which are required in this situation.
    But Nigel Owens mentioned control. Although, I agree. Recently it appeared contact was how "holding" was being refereed. But that goes against the decision in the France v Scotland game.

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    Default Re: Downward pressure / in control

    The ruling was that the French player "lost control" of the ball. So the player in possession lost control. No try - knock on.....

    I don't think this is "wrong", but it is possible to have other opinions on it.

    The question asked was "try or no try", so the TMO had to be clear the try was scored. So I can see why it wasn't given. I suspect if the ref asked "Any reason...." - the try might have been given, as not C&O he did lose control.

    Perhaps the best solution here is to apply the "doubt about grounding" (I know this really applies to which team first grounded it, but would be a good extension of teh law).. Scrum to France - doubt about grounding.

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    Default Re: Downward pressure / in control

    Quote Originally Posted by FlipFlop View Post
    Perhaps the best solution here is to apply the "doubt about grounding" (I know this really applies to which team first grounded it, but would be a good extension of teh law).. Scrum to France - doubt about grounding.
    This is the approach I'd like to see, if neither is C&O.

    It's a strange situation in that you don't have the option of playing on if something isn't C&O, which I don't feel is adequately handled at the moment.

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    Default Re: Downward pressure / in control

    For me the most questionable is when a player loses the ball forward into goal but guides it to the ground with one hand. Knock-on or try? If the ball was kicked into goal and an attacking player guided it to ground with one hand I would expect a try to be awarded.

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    Default Re: Downward pressure / in control

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisR View Post
    For me the most questionable is when a player loses the ball forward into goal but guides it to the ground with one hand. Knock-on or try? If the ball was kicked into goal and an attacking player guided it to ground with one hand I would expect a try to be awarded.
    I'm glad you said "into"

    To answer the question, though. For me, it depends how much guiding is involved (I'm reluctant to say "control"). If there was sufficient guiding that the ball could be considered to have been caught, no knock on.

    Along similar lines, there was an incident in the French game yesterday - France knock forward, then the same player played the ball back to a team mate. You'd be hard pressed to say he caught it, but it was definitely well controlled and the ref didn't award a knock on.
    Last edited by DocY; 13-02-17 at 14:02.

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