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Thread: Downward pressure / in control

      
  1. #21
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    Default Re: Downward pressure / in control

    Well apparently, in internationals, you do need control!

    http://www.planetrugby.com/news/loose-pass-355/

    Not completely sure about the source, but I can't see why they'd make it up.

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    Default Re: Downward pressure / in control

    Am I missing something here? Did the officials in Paris change as I thought these were the officials:

    France vs Scotland
    @ Stade de France
    Referee: Jaco Peyper (South Africa)
    Assistant Referees: Johnny Lacey (Ireland), Luke Pearce (England)
    TMO: Peter Fitzgibbon (Ireland)

    If so what was Nigel doing making the call?

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    Default Re: Downward pressure / in control

    Quote Originally Posted by Pegleg View Post
    If so what was Nigel doing making the call?
    I think he was discussing it on the radio.

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    Default Re: Downward pressure / in control

    Ah right. Not clear from the thread.

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    Default Re: Downward pressure / in control

    Quote Originally Posted by Pegleg View Post
    Ah right. Not clear from the thread.
    My bad - when I said Nigel getting it wrong "here" I meant in relation to the podcast appearance which I linked in below that. Would be good to see that clarification on "control" though...

  6. #26

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    Default Re: Downward pressure / in control

    For me the discussion about control is about how you decide if the ball carrier is holding the ball as he touches the ground. The law does not require control, but it does require holding, and I think it is reasonable to conclude that holding requires some form of control over the ball, so that if a player loses control of the ball he by definition is no longer holding it and (if in goal and the ball touches the grass) a try cannot be scored, or (if in the field of play) you ask if the ball has gone forward and if so a scrum.

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    Default Re: Downward pressure / in control

    Remember there was a Law Clarification regarding Law 22.4(g) back in 2012 that said if a player guides a ball, that is in the air, to the ground (i.e. Guides not holds), he is deemed to be in possession/holding the ball.
    Therefore a player can be holding the ball without grasping it.
    Make sense?
    When you are dead, you don't know that you are dead. It is difficult only for the others.
    It's the same when you are stupid.

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    Default Re: Downward pressure / in control

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fat View Post
    Remember there was a Law Clarification regarding Law 22.4(g) back in 2012 that said if a player guides a ball, that is in the air, to the ground (i.e. Guides not holds), he is deemed to be in possession/holding the ball.
    Therefore a player can be holding the ball without grasping it.
    Make sense?
    So how much contact do you need to "guide" - is constant contact with fingers enough or does the palm need to be involved... this is the crux of the debate really

  9. #29
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    Default Re: Downward pressure / in control

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fat View Post
    Remember there was a Law Clarification regarding Law 22.4(g) back in 2012 that said if a player guides a ball, that is in the air, to the ground (i.e. Guides not holds), he is deemed to be in possession/holding the ball.
    Therefore a player can be holding the ball without grasping it.
    Make sense?
    Here's is the Clarification:
    The FFR request a clarification for the following:

    Following a kick ahead, the ball goes over the goal line and whilst it is still up in the air, a player places his hand on it and grounds it. However, before this player grounds the ball, his feet are in touch.

    We would like to know:

    • Whether Law 22.4 (g) applies only to a ball already on the ground before it is touched down or other situations as described above;
    • Whether the situation, as described above, is equivalent to “carrying the ball”.

    Clarification in Law by the Designated Members of the Rugby Committee

    Law 19 or Law 22.4 (g) applies;

    • If player is carrying the ball, enters the opposition in-goal area and the player’s feet touch the touch-in-goal line or beyond then the player is in touch-in-goal and a try is not awarded. Law 19 Touch and Lineout – Definitions
    • If a player is not carrying the ball then Law 22.4 (g) applies - Player in touch or touch-in-goal. If an attacking player is in touch or in touch-in-goal, the player can score a try by grounding the ball in the opponents’ in-goal provided the player is not carrying the ball.

    The designated members confirm that:

    1. A try should not be awarded,
    2. The player is considered to be carrying the ball as the ball is in the air when it is first played and,
    3. Law 22.4 (g) only applies if the ball is on the ground.


    The clarification is not quite on the point. As the present discussion is purely about "control". In the Clarification Scenario the player places his hand on a loose ball. In the game situation the ball is held and "lost" (or not) forward whilst stil being in contact with the player.

  10. #30
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    Default Re: Downward pressure / in control

    Quote Originally Posted by Thunderhorse1986 View Post
    My bad - when I said Nigel getting it wrong "here" I meant in relation to the podcast appearance which I linked in below that. Would be good to see that clarification on "control" though...
    If Nigel was talking on a podcast, I would doubt he got the "official" position wrong. So I am guessing he is presenting the WR line, as presented to the elite referees. So I would assume that the TMO and ref are also "correct" in respect of the official interpretation as well.

    Do I agree with that interpretation? Who cares? My view is not relevant.

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