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Thread: Ireland v England

      
  1. #41

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    Default Re: Ireland v England

    A) there is no gate (that's for a tackle) he just has to enter from back foot, which he does
    B) youngs is not standing behind the ruck, and he isn't really extracting, he is over the ball, so he is in the ruck, and can be bound on. Indeed the Ireland player *has to* bind on to him, as it's a ruck
    Last edited by crossref; 20-03-17 at 21:03.

  2. #42

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    Default Re: Ireland v England

    Quote Originally Posted by crossref View Post
    A) there is no gate (that's for a tackle) he just has to enter from back foot, which he does
    B) youngs is not standing behind the ruck, and he isn't really extracting, he is over the ball, so he is in the ruck, and can be bound on. Indeed the Ireland player *has to* bind on to him, as it's a ruck
    No, the ball is in the ruck, and BY has never joined it (no bind). There is a ruck that formed, players go to ground but the ruck doesn't end, and BY is not part of it at any point. Clear penalty.

  3. #43

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    Default Re: Ireland v England

    So you have a ruck that is impossible to join or contest?

  4. #44

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    Arrow Re: Ireland v England

    This has cropped up before on the forums. The "Law" protecting the 9 is unwritten, but is there for the safety of players off their feet. The quicker the ball comes out the less risk there is of them getting stomped on.

    Clarification 8 2006
    The FFR has requested a ruling with regard to Law 16 Ruck
    Question:
    1. Can the referee allow a defender coming from his side to intervene on an opponent as soon as his opponent has his hands on the ball, by diving over the players on the ground in front of him?
    2. Can the referee allow a defender coming from his side to intervene on the ball as soon as it emerges from the ruck, by diving over the players on the ground in front of him?
    3. Can the referee allow a player coming from his side to hit the arm of the opponent as this opponent has the ball in his hands, by diving over the players on the ground in front of him?
    4. Can the referee allow a player coming from his side to hit the arm of the opponent as this opponent has the ball in his hands, by staying on his feet but being in contact with players on the ground in front of him?

    Ruling in Law by the Designated Members of the Rugby Committee
    1. No. See Laws 16.2(d) and 16.3(d).
    2. No. See Laws 16.2(d) and 16.3(d).
    3. No. See Laws 16.2(d) and 16.3(d).
    4. Yes. If the player was on his feet and came from an onside position.
    Law références have been updated since this was written.
    Quote Originally Posted by crossref View Post
    So you have a ruck that is impossible to join or contest?
    For my money, Green needs to bind to one of the players now on the deck, before he can be part of the ruck. Binding to 9 is frowned upon. (It would be nice to have a Law clarification number that itemizes this point.)

    The way I saw the action ; Green 1 and 3 hold the ball carrier, in an attempt to form a choke tackle/maul White 2 binds to Green 1. In the meantime the ballcarrier rolls to go off his feet and avoid the maul ploy? Taking G3 with him. White 2 attempts a clean out G3 at which point the near tackle becomes a ruck. Green must bind to one of these players on the ground if he wishes to contest the ball.
    Last edited by L'irlandais; 20-03-17 at 22:03.
    "We demand strict proof for opinions we dislike, but are satisfied with mere hints for what we’re inclined to accept."
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  5. #45
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    Default Re: Ireland v England

    The play shows that the initial contest was clearly won by white. With no futher players on their feet seeking to engage there is no opportunity to counter ruck unless BY had ignored the ball and looked to engage green directly himself. As he didn't there is no way I can see green could have ever won the ball legally after that point. I don't see the difficulty in this instance.

    A new forward coming in before BY is more likely to stand as guard over the ball in which case the ruck could most likely continue or there would be a pick and go in which case the ball would be out!

  6. #46

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    Default Re: Ireland v England

    Quote Originally Posted by L'irlandais View Post
    This has cropped up before on the forums. The "Law" protecting the 9 is unwritten, but is there for the safety of players off their feet. The quicker the ball comes out the less risk there is of them getting stomped on.

    Clarification 8 2006
    The FFR has requested a ruling with regard to Law 16 Ruck
    Question:
    1. Can the referee allow a defender coming from his side to intervene on an opponent as soon as his opponent has his hands on the ball, by diving over the players on the ground in front of him?
    2. Can the referee allow a defender coming from his side to intervene on the ball as soon as it emerges from the ruck, by diving over the players on the ground in front of him?
    3. Can the referee allow a player coming from his side to hit the arm of the opponent as this opponent has the ball in his hands, by diving over the players on the ground in front of him?
    4. Can the referee allow a player coming from his side to hit the arm of the opponent as this opponent has the ball in his hands, by staying on his feet but being in contact with players on the ground in front of him?

    Ruling in Law by the Designated Members of the Rugby Committee
    1. No. See Laws 16.2(d) and 16.3(d).
    2. No. See Laws 16.2(d) and 16.3(d).
    3. No. See Laws 16.2(d) and 16.3(d).
    4. Yes. If the player was on his feet and came from an onside position.
    Law références have been updated since this was written. For my money, Green needs to bind to one of the players now on the deck, before he can be part of the ruck. Binding to 9 is frowned upon. (It would be nice to have a Law clarification number that itemizes this point.)

    The way I saw the action ; Green 1 and 3 hold the ball carrier, in an attempt to form a choke tackle/maul White 2 binds to Green 1. In the meantime the ballcarrier rolls to go off his feet and avoid the maul ploy? Taking G3 with him. White 2 attempts a clean out G3 at which point the near tackle becomes a ruck. Green must bind to one of these players on the ground if he wishes to contest the ball.
    Almost.
    All green player can do now is stand at his offside line until the ball is out.
    Phil E gave the correct summation early on in this thread.
    When you are dead, you don't know that you are dead. It is difficult only for the others.
    It's the same when you are stupid.

  7. #47
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    Default Re: Ireland v England

    Quote Originally Posted by crossref View Post
    A) there is no gate (that's for a tackle) he just has to enter from back foot, which he does
    B) youngs is not standing behind the ruck, and he isn't really extracting, he is over the ball, so he is in the ruck, and can be bound on. Indeed the Ireland player *has to* bind on to him, as it's a ruck
    Back to the England Italy game and all the discussions about a ruck being required to be made up of willing participants. You cannot pull someone in who doesn't want to be there nor can you engage the player acting as 9 who is just seeking to pick it out.

    Have we have such short memories?

  8. #48

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    Default Re: Ireland v England

    Quote Originally Posted by crossref View Post
    So you have a ruck that is impossible to join or contest?
    Yes, and if the ball doesn't emerge it just becomes a "unplayable" with a scrum to team going forward. So something will happen, either the ball will come out or it won't and we have processes for either scenario i.e. either play on or scrum
    When you are dead, you don't know that you are dead. It is difficult only for the others.
    It's the same when you are stupid.

  9. #49
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    Default Re: Ireland v England

    Quote Originally Posted by crossref View Post
    So you have a ruck that is impossible to join or contest?
    Technically yes but then that is when as a ref you would call 'use it'

  10. #50

    Referees in England


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    Default Re: Ireland v England

    I don't know, I don't like the idea of a ruck that you can't join / contest

    Let's take W9 out of it for a momet --

    if W9 was not there, what could G1 do ?
    can he
    - come through the ruck and pick up the ball
    - come through the ruck and kick the ball
    - join the ruck and bind on to the white players on the ground
    - join the ruck and simply stand over the ball, with the ball between his feet

    No, Yes, Yes, Yes ?

    Now add W9 back into the equation - can he do the same things?

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