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Thread: TJ Perenara's Bluff

      
  1. #61

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    Default Re: TJ Perenara's Bluff

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fat View Post
    How did Cooky miss my update Dickie???
    I didn't miss it Fat, I just didn't think I needed to comment.

    However, if you insist...



    Some of us had it right five days ago, as early as Post #8
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  2. #62
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    Default Re: TJ Perenara's Bluff

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian_Cook View Post
    I didn't miss it Fat, I just didn't think I needed to comment.

    However, if you insist...



    Some of us had it right five days ago, as early as Post #8
    #3 in my case, although I was loitering at the time.

  3. #63

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    Default Re: TJ Perenara's Bluff

    Quote Originally Posted by ChuckieB View Post
    #3 in my case, although I was loitering at the time.

    "You can Google for information, but you can't Google for understanding"
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  4. #64

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    Default Re: TJ Perenara's Bluff

    I always enjoy a bit of cross-Tasman banter, so excuse me for wading in here rather late.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian_Cook View Post
    There is no Law in the book that allows a scrum to be ordered for what happened because TJP did not commit any infringement. He simply picked up the ball and ran... it wasn't an incorrect type of kick or a bounce off the knee, which are the only infringements for which a scrum can be ordered. Why should Gold be disadvantaged because the AG initially failed to notice that TJP hadn't kicked the ball.

    If you can show me a Law that says a player failing to kick the ball at all at a PK/FK is an infringement, I'll happily recant.
    OB has already addressed this, but did so on the assumption that the debate was an April Fool. So returning to his argument (with which I agree): The law clarifies that neither a tap with the heel nor a bounce on the knee constitute kicks. It also confirms (21.3b) that at least one example of not taking a kick (bouncing on the knee) is an offence. I'd invite Ian to say whether he feels that this is a considered confirmation from WR that not taking a kick by bouncing on the knee is so substantively different from not taking a kick by heeling the ball that the former is an offence but the latter is not. Only if one takes that view can you argue as Ian has done that only bouncing on the knee is sanctioned. Given the imprecision that we all recognise in the drafting of the laws, I think it is far more likely (by a factor of perhaps 1000) that the sanction for the offence of not kicking the ball by bouncing off the knee is intended to cover heeling the ball as well - and in fact all instances of accidentally not taking a kick.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisR View Post
    If a quick tap is taken from the wrong place the kick must be taken again. But if the ball doesn't leave the 9's hand the opponents get the scrum? I think that this is a product of lazy law writing.
    ChrisR, taking a quick tap from the wrong place can be a simple misjudgement of the position of the correct place. Taking it with the wrong type of kick is a failure of skill. I see no problem with the laws adopting different outcomes for those two errors. It strikes me as sensible and rational rather that lazy.
    Don't feed the pedant!

  5. #65

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    Default Re: TJ Perenara's Bluff

    Not sure if my chopperesque query got answered before...

    what happens if the tap penalty is taken with the wrong sort of kick from the wrong place?
    scrum or retake?

    didds
    Last edited by didds; 07-04-17 at 14:04.

  6. #66
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    Default Re: TJ Perenara's Bluff

    Quote Originally Posted by didds View Post
    Not sure if my chopperesque query got answered before...

    what happens if the tap penalty is taken with the wrong sort of kick from the wrong place?
    scrum or retake?

    didds
    The scrum takes precedence, I think. But in practice I'm probably jogging to the mark and not paying much attention to a quick tap from the wrong place.

  7. #67
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    Default Re: TJ Perenara's Bluff

    Quote Originally Posted by didds View Post
    Not sure if my chopperesque query got answered before...

    what happens if the tap penalty is taken with the wrong sort of kick from the wrong place?
    scrum or retake?

    didds
    I'd say scrum: the more serious mistake takes precedence.

    If someone knocks on while offside you don't give the opposition a scrum, right?

  8. #68

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    Default Re: TJ Perenara's Bluff

    Quote Originally Posted by Rich_NL View Post
    I'd say scrum: the more serious mistake takes precedence.

    If someone knocks on while offside you don't give the opposition a scrum, right?
    indeed.

    but I can see that some would make the argument that as the tap was taken from the wrong place, the kick was redundant anyway...

    didds

  9. #69

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    Default Re: TJ Perenara's Bluff

    Quote Originally Posted by Dixie View Post
    The law clarifies that neither a tap with the heel nor a bounce on the knee constitute kicks. It also confirms (21.3b) that at least one example of not taking a kick (bouncing on the knee) is an offence.
    Here we are, treating the laws as if they were Parliamentary Statutes. They are not. They are an attempt to set down the rules in a fashion that can be understood by ordinary players with no legal training. That means they will always be flawed to a greater or lesser extent.

    The relevant points are not covered in the 1959 Laws, so my earliest reference is 1974, and the law was next changed in 2000.
    1974
    Law 27 PENALTY KICK
    [...]
    Penalty:for an infringement by the kicker's team - a scrummage at the mark.

    Definitions
    Kick. A kick is made by propelling the ball with any part of the leg or foot (except the heel), from knee to toe inclusive. If the player is holding the ball, he must propel it out of his hands, or if it is on the ground, he must propel it a visible distance.

    Instruction and Notes on the Laws
    27 (3) A player taking a penalty kick may not bounce the ball on his knee. The kick must be made with the foot or lower leg. If a player fails to kick the ball, a scrummage should be ordered.

    2000
    Definitions
    Kick - a kick is made by hitting the ball with any part of the leg or foot, except the heel, from the toe to the knee but not including the knee; a kick must move the ball a visible distance out of the hand, or along the ground

    Law 21
    3. HOW THE PENALTY AND FREE KICKS ARE TAKEN
    Any player may take a penalty or free kick awarded for an infringement with any kind of kick: punt, drop kick or place kick. The ball may be kicked with any part of the leg from knee to toe but not with the heel.
    (b) Bouncing the ball on the knee is not taking a kick.
    (c) The kicker must use the ball that was in play unless the referee decides it was defective.
    Penalty: Any infringement by the kicker's team results in a scrum at the mark. The opposing team throws in the ball.


    As I pointed out in my #22, a team has been awarded the right to take a penalty KICK. They can formally ask for a scrum or a lineout, but otherwise play can only be restarted with a valid kick. Any other attempt to restart play is invalid and gives the opposition a scrum.

    IMHO that is common sense, and is the way it has been refereed for many years.

    (Taking the kick quickly, before the referee makes the mark, but from the wrong place is generally accepted as a permissible error, hence a re-take.)
    Last edited by OB..; 07-04-17 at 17:04.
    He trudg’d along unknowing what he sought,
    And whistled as he went, for want of thought.
    The Referee by John Dryden

  10. #70
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    Default Re: TJ Perenara's Bluff

    Rereading this whole thread, I think there remains a confusion as to whether or not the ball not being seen to move visibly, is also anything other than "take it back,do it properly". just like not kicking the ball at all.

    Are people suggesting it's a scrum?

    It then helps with our understanding of bouncing the ball which you can argue is likely to be a deliberate act, as opposed to these two which might both be accidental and so bracketed together. Take it back do it again!

    kicking with the knee or the heel are equally covered in this bracket as just not being attempts in the nature of kick. Go back try again!

    Bouncing the ball is different again. they have just chosen to differentiate it and call it an infringement,

    so an incorrect tap is an incorrect tap, take it back. Bounce it on you knee and we'll go for the scrum!

    This is then supporting dixie's reasonable question of clarification to Ian, OB's explanation and Ian's own view.
    Last edited by ChuckieB; 07-04-17 at 17:04.

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