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Thread: Pulling a player forward

      
  1. #11
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    Default Re: Pulling a player forward

    Quote Originally Posted by didds View Post
    ah yes - I seem to recall the ref on the day wasn;t sure either if merely grabbing a player was sufficujent.

    OK - don't restart the thread!

    In which case in the OP a ruck is formed and collapsing the ruck has occurred, playing advantage to see if red claim the ball usefully with the ruck illegally having "ended" by being collapsed and now no ruck existing

    except... the OP doesn't say the red player went to ground... so if bhe satys on his feet then ruck over ball clear, no collapse.

    didds
    For me the laws are not sharp enough to differentiate a simultaneous formation and collapse scenario.

  2. #12
    Player or Coach ChrisR's Avatar

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    Default Re: Pulling a player forward

    I posed this question after binge watching the 7s circuit. As I see it:

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisR View Post
    Red ball carrier tackled by Blue. Ball is placed back and Red support player arrives and crouches over the ball.

    Blue player arrives, grasps the Red player over the ball and pulls him forward so that the ball is now in the clear behind the Red player.

    1. When the Blue player grasps the Red player with just his hands does this constitute binding and has a ruck formed?
    Yes. 'Binding' not stipulated in law, only 'contact'.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisR View Post
    2. Is it fair play to pull an opponent forward out of a ruck?
    Yes. Not prohibited for rucks.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisR View Post
    3. If the Red player, pulled forward, goes to ground is that collapsing the ruck?
    When a player is pulled (or pushed) out/away from a ruck and goes to ground then this is not collapsing as that player is no longer part of the ruck.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisR View Post
    4. Has the ruck ended when the ball is clear of the hind foot even though the ball didn't move?
    Yes, the ruck has ended.

  3. #13

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    Default Re: Pulling a player forward

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisR View Post
    1. When the Blue player grasps the Red player with just his hands does this constitute binding and has a ruck formed?
    You only need "physical contact" to create a ruck.

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    Default Re: Pulling a player forward

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisR View Post
    Red ball carrier tackled by Blue. Ball is placed back and Red support player arrives and crouches over the ball.

    Blue player arrives, grasps the Red player over the ball and pulls him forward so that the ball is now in the clear behind the Red player.

    1. When the Blue player grasps the Red player with just his hands does this constitute binding and has a ruck formed?cmere Contact=ruck, so yes.

    2. Is it fair play to pull an opponent forward out of a ruck? Has equal status to saddle rolling, i.e. it's collapsed the ruck, fair no, ignored nowadays - yes.

    3. If the Red player, pulled forward, goes to ground is that collapsing the ruck? Yes, but the pro game [15's] mainly ignores that nowadays

    4. Has the ruck ended when the ball is clear of the hind foot even though the ball didn't move? Yes, for the same reasoning as above
    my 2p worth above

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    Default Re: Pulling a player forward

    I see this as a ruck has been formed (players in contact over the ball). Pulling a player forward and out of the ruck is either collapsing a ruck, or certainly illegal contact and I'm penalising this. I've seen it a few times on TV (yes, different game, different rules!) but I don't like it and if it happens in a game I'm refereeing it's getting penalised.

  6. #16
    Player or Coach ChrisR's Avatar

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    Default Re: Pulling a player forward

    Interesting. I have a different take on pulling a player forward out of the ruck. I think of 'collapsing the ruck' as making the ball unplayable or preventing access to it by an opponent.

    I see pulling a player forward as a means of clearing the player out of the ruck.

    To me the 'saddle roll/croc roll' is a violation of law 16.3(a) Players in a ruck must endeavor to stay on their feet.

  7. #17

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    Default Re: Pulling a player forward

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisR View Post
    Interesting. I have a different take on pulling a player forward out of the ruck. I think of 'collapsing the ruck' as making the ball unplayable or preventing access to it by an opponent.

    I see pulling a player forward as a means of clearing the player out of the ruck.

    To me the 'saddle roll/croc roll' is a violation of law 16.3(a) Players in a ruck must endeavor to stay on their feet.

    I would agree with most of this. If you are pulling someone OUT of a ruck, then how can you collapsing them IN a ruck?

    The saddle roll is ok with me if they take them clear/out of the sides, and not directly down.

  8. #18

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    Default Re: Pulling a player forward

    USA R have been pretty clear about the saddle roll:
    Only to be done on players who have their hands on the ball.
    Rolling a player who doesn't have his hands on the ball should be penalized.
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    Default Re: Pulling a player forward

    Quote Originally Posted by winchesterref View Post
    If you are pulling someone OUT of a ruck, then how can you collapsing them IN a ruck?
    Out? In?
    16.3 (b) A player must not intentionally collapse a ruck.
    He trudg’d along unknowing what he sought,
    And whistled as he went, for want of thought.
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  10. #20
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    Default Re: Pulling a player forward

    I can see 'collapsing the ruck' if the pulled player goes to ground over the ball but what about:

    . . . if the player is pulled out of the ruck but doesn't go to ground?

    . . . and if the player is clear of the ruck before he goes to ground?

    As for USA Rugby and the saddle roll that just muddies the water.

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