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Thread: Front row player forced up

      
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    Player or Coach ChrisR's Avatar

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    Default Front row player forced up

    On three occasions in two recent international matches penalties were given to front row players who had been forced up out of the scrum. The referee signal was similar to an opening drawbridge and clearly indicated that the penalty was against the player standing up.

    From the Laws of the Game 2017:
    20.8 (i) Lifting or forcing an opponent up. A front row player must not lift an opponent in the air, or force an opponent upwards out of the scrum, either when the ball is being thrown in or afterwards.
    This is dangerous play.
    Sanction: Penalty kick

    There appears to be no prohibition in the Laws against a player standing up given that he doesn’t break his bind.
    Sanctioning a player who has been forced up out of the scrum, instead of the player who forced him up, is a serious misapplication of law. Is there an explanation that I’m missing?

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    Default Re: Front row player forced up

    Taking the caveat that it is very hard to stand up without breaking the bind. I agree.

    However, I am in the minority:

    The, oft, cited law is

    20.2 FRONT-ROW PLAYERS’ POSITIONS
    (a) All players in a position to shove. When a scrum has formed , the body and feet of each
    front row player must be in a normal position to make a forward shove.
    Sanction: Free Kick
    (b) This means that the front row players must have both feet on the ground , with their weight
    firmly on at least one foot. Players must not cross their feet , although the foot of one player
    may cross a team-mate’s foot. Each player’s shoulders must be no lower than the hips.
    Sanction: Free Kick

    Thie bit in bold being critical. However, the reast of (a) and (b) expand on that and there is no reference to the position of the shoulders other than the underlined bit.

    The argument put forward also says that you "can't" push when stood up. Now whilst it may be less effective you certainly can push. Of course, the law does not require you to actually push at all. Again the argument goes that 20.2 (a) requires you to be in a position to shove therefor it is tacitly implied that you must push (see also debated on wheeling where LH drives whilst TH hold his position [not pulling back of course!]).

    I ping it because that is the directive from my society. I am not in agreement with that action.

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    Player or Coach ChrisR's Avatar

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    Default Re: Front row player forced up

    The problem that I have with that train of thought is it applies a technical law that really addresses pre-feed requirements and ignores a serious and potentially dangerous violation.

    At its worst it encourages the practice of front row players driving up and earning a PK. I simply don't get it.

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    Default Re: Front row player forced up

    ChrisR,

    Standing up is merely the only legal pressure release that a prop who is unable to cope can use safely. He can't go down, or force his opponent down as these are both 'unsafe'.

    FWIW, IMO, Elite ref's seem to only ever reward the team who's got the 'go forward' , personally I think that they take this option because there are so many offences happening that they often don't really know or understand [likely only x-FR would claim to know some!] so it's simply an easilier sell to all watchers & participants i.e....if you're going backwards then it mustve been you !

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    Player or Coach ChrisR's Avatar

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    Default Re: Front row player forced up

    Quote Originally Posted by VM75 View Post
    ChrisR,

    Standing up is merely the only legal pressure release that a prop who is unable to cope can use safely. He can't go down, or force his opponent down as these are both 'unsafe'.

    FWIW, IMO, Elite ref's seem to only ever reward the team who's got the 'go forward' , personally I think that they take this option because there are so many offences happening that they often don't really know or understand [likely only x-FR would claim to know some!] so it's simply an easilier sell to all watchers & participants i.e....if you're going backwards then it mustve been you !
    VM75, these are two crucial points.

    Standing up, in and of itself, is not prohibited.

    Why do teams, well into their own half, get the 'push' on? They're not driving 70m. It's because the 'push' certifies that any scrum failure must be laid at the feet of the team under pressure.

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    Default Re: Front row player forced up

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisR View Post
    There appears to be no prohibition in the Laws against a player standing up given that he doesn’t break his bind.
    I understand penalising a player that stands up is done on the grounds of him not now being in a pushing position

    However..

    20.2 Front-row players’ positions
    (a) All players in a position to shove. When a scrum has formed, the body and feet of each front row player must be in a normal position to make a forward shove.
    Sanction: Free Kick
    ... which suggests that the sanction is a FK not a PK. I would also accept there is much debate over what constitutes "a normal position to make a forward shove.". eg one could shove with my belly or chest


    didds

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    Default Re: Front row player forced up

    It seems others agree with me that its 20.2... but the ssanction theer is "only" a PK.

    but as ChrisR said...

    "On three occasions in two recent international matches penalties were given to front row players who had been forced up out of the scrum".

    which doesn't match...

    so what were they being penalised with PKs for?

    didds

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    Default Re: Front row player forced up

    They are being pingged for "standing up". The question is: "It that in keeping with law?"

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    Default Re: Front row player forced up

    Quote Originally Posted by Pegleg View Post
    They are being pingged for "standing up". The question is: "It that in keeping with law?"
    indeed - so what law are they being pinged for?

    It can't be 20.2 if a PK is awarded.


    didds

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    Default Re: Front row player forced up

    It is. As we all know. That's the signal used. So they are in some way wrong. Either it should be a FK OR are they using either of:

    20.8 FRONT-ROW PLAYERS

    Sanction: Penalty kick
    (g) Twisting , dipping or collapsing. Front row players must not twist or lower their bodies , or
    pull opponents , or do anything that is likely to collapse the scrum , either when the ball is
    being thrown in or afterwards.
    Sanction: Penalty kick

    (i) Lifting or forcing an opponent up. A front row player must not lift an opponent in the air ,
    or force an opponent upwards out of the scrum , either when the ball is being thrown in or
    afterwards. This is dangerous play.
    Sanction: Penalty kick

    Claiming that by standing up they are either destabalising the scum , thus making a collapse likely or lifiting / forcing the other side up?

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