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Thread: Front row player forced up

      
  1. #11

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    Default Re: Front row player forced up

    I can't recall a scrum ever collapsing when soembody stands up. And ive seen plenty of scrums where soebody stands and the oppo stay "down".

    wierd.

    didds

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    Default Re: Front row player forced up

    I'm not saying it makes sense. I'm just trying to second guess possible reasons.

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    Default Re: Front row player forced up

    Quote Originally Posted by Pegleg View Post
    It is. As we all know. That's the signal used. So they are in some way wrong. Either it should be a FK OR are they using either of:

    20.8 FRONT-ROW PLAYERS

    (g) Twisting , dipping or collapsing.

    Front row players must not twist or lower their bodies , or
    pull opponents , or do anything that is likely to collapse the scrum , either when the ball is
    being thrown in or afterwards.
    Sanction: Penalty kick

    (i) Lifting or forcing an opponent up.

    A front row player must not lift an opponent in the air ,
    or force an opponent upwards out of the scrum , either when the ball is being thrown in or
    afterwards. This is dangerous play.
    Sanction: Penalty kick

    Claiming that by standing up they are either destabalising the scum , thus making a collapse likely or lifiting / forcing the other side up?
    Neither of 20.8 [g] or [i] apply IMO.

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    Default Re: Front row player forced up

    Quote Originally Posted by didds View Post
    And I've seen plenty of scrums where somebody stands and the oppo stay "down".

    wierd.

    didds
    And then the bind will almost certainly break.

    Perhaps some one who does think it is a PK offence to stand up can tells us why they think so?

  5. #15

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    Default Re: Front row player forced up

    Quote Originally Posted by Pegleg View Post
    And then the bind will almost certainly break.

    Perhaps some one who does think it is a PK offence to stand up can tells us why they think so?
    Ok. I will.

    It is in the law that players must maintain the normal position to make a forward shove. It comes under the scrum section. The normal position to make a forward shove in a scrum is not standing up.

    If someone stands up deliberately they have a) not maintained their normal shoving position in a scrum, and b) deliberately offended. I can forsee a time when this law is clarified and the FK sanction removed.

    That has the caveat that my first look is always at the team driving forwards, or not standing, to check for illegality there. If they force someone out by driving anything apart from forwards legally, I will aim to pick out the offence and penalise them.
    Last edited by winchesterref; 02-07-17 at 19:07.

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    Default Re: Front row player forced up

    Quote Originally Posted by winchesterref View Post
    Ok. I will.

    It is in the law that players must maintain the normal position to make a forward shove. It comes under the scrum section. The normal position to make a forward shove in a scrum is not standing up.

    If someone stands up deliberately they have a) not maintained their normal shoving position in a scrum, and b) deliberately offended. I can forsee a time when this law is clarified and the FK sanction removed for clarity.

    That has the caveat that my first look is always at the team driving forwards, or not standing, to check for illegality there. If they force someone out by driving anything apart from forwards legally, I will aim to penalise them.

    Can you put that law up here please? To support your stand point.

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    Default Re: Front row player forced up

    Or do you mean this one?

    20.2 FRONT-ROW PLAYERS’ POSITIONS
    (a) All players in a position to shove. When a scrum has formed , the body and feet of each
    front row player must be in a normal position to make a forward shove.
    Sanction: Free Kick
    (b) This means that the front row players must have both feet on the ground , with their weight
    firmly on at least one foot. Players must not cross their feet , although the foot of one player
    may cross a team-mate’s foot. Each player’s shoulders must be no lower than the hips.
    Sanction: Free Kick

    Two points:

    1: the sanction for that law is not a PK - There can be no clarification the sanction IS a FK and NOT a PK, It's simply a law error.

    2: section b explains what a position to shove means and there is no reference to standing up in there. (that of course can be "clarified" by a change in the law.

    As it stands this paticular law does not prohibit standing up.

  8. #18

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    Default Re: Front row player forced up

    It's from my reading of 20.2 alongside other areas of the scrum law.

    Whilst b) gives some indication of a position, we ask players to go into a "crouch" and we have a definition of what a crouch should be, and we have a picture of what the scrum should be - which is an umbrella over the whole law.

    A scrum is formed in the field of play when eight players from each team, bound together in three rows for each team, close up with their opponents so that the heads of the front rows are interlocked. This creates a tunnel into which a scrum half throws the ball so that front row players can compete for possession by hooking the ball with either of their feet.


    I think this clearly describes what is expected of a scrum and the position players are expected to be in (when they push).

    Edit to reply:
    It isn't a law error if the referee feels it is a deliberate offence, or that they have played "unfairly".

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    Default Re: Front row player forced up

    Since I have never seen a FK for it and nor have the other posters expressign the same question, it does not seem that referees are seeing anything other than a PK and not a deliberate offence and thus upgraded. That suggests it is an error and not a decision to upgrade.

    The tunnel still exists.

    The side standing can still push.

  10. #20

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    Default Re: Front row player forced up

    Standing, but close up and heads interlocked. In the position that we put them in for a scrum.

    Why do we bother with crouch? Why not just stand together then lads, off we go?

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