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Thread: Front row player forced up

      
  1. #21

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    Default Re: Front row player forced up

    Also, the fact you have never seen a FK for it means nothing. Clearly as a group of elite referees they could all have decided that there is no way of "accidentally" standing, and therefore they automatically class it as deliberate.

  2. #22
    Player or Coach ChrisR's Avatar

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    Default Re: Front row player forced up

    Here is the first example:

    https://youtu.be/nGCDojwP7vM?t=1161

    Just note how the Irish TH gets under the USA hooker and forces him up.

    Ask yourself this, Ireland is on their own 22, the ball is under the 8's foot, why are they driving? Not going 80m are they. They are looking for the PK. And the referee gave them a cheap one for something that's not even an offense.

  3. #23

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    Default Re: Front row player forced up

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisR View Post
    Here is the first example:

    https://youtu.be/nGCDojwP7vM?t=1161

    Just note how the Irish TH gets under the USA hooker and forces him up.

    Ask yourself this, Ireland is on their own 22, the ball is under the 8's foot, why are they driving? Not going 80m are they. They are looking for the PK. And the referee gave them a cheap one for something that's not even an offense.
    In your opinion.

    The other stuff is quite correct. They're playing to a strength of theirs. Up to the other team to raise their game. In this instance if the TH truly forces the oppo LH up then the penalty is the wrong way (I've not watched the video yet).

  4. #24

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    Default Re: Front row player forced up

    Quote Originally Posted by Pegleg View Post
    And then the bind will almost certainly break.

    Perhaps some one who does think it is a PK offence to stand up can tells us why they think so?
    Agree it must surely be the bind. Even that's pushing it somewhat ... props only need a grip on an oppo shirt on the back or side - don't need armpit to wrist yadda yadda yadda. Similarly hookers need a grip on both props shirts - no mention of armpit to wrist etc.

    Very happy to shown why standing = immediate PK.

    didds
    Last edited by didds; 02-07-17 at 21:07.

  5. #25
    Player or Coach ChrisR's Avatar

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    Default Re: Front row player forced up

    Here's the next one, US vs. Canada. This time the Canadian hooker pops the US TH.

    https://youtu.be/EVDy_sTAgR8?t=571

    Don't get me wrong. I fully understand that US scrummaging is piss poor but my complaint is about the improper PK.

  6. #26

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    Default Re: Front row player forced up

    Quote Originally Posted by winchesterref View Post
    Ok. I will.

    It is in the law that players must maintain the normal position to make a forward shove. It comes under the scrum section. The normal position to make a forward shove in a scrum is not standing up.
    20.2 Front-row players’ positions
    (a) All players in a position to shove. When a scrum has formed, the body and feet of each front row player must be in a normal position to make a forward shove.
    Sanction: Free Kick


    That's a FK and not a PK. If the argument (which WR made) is that it is a deliberate act and thus a PK, then its an inteerstig route to take with any7 FK that is initiated by an unforced error.

    eg 13.11 Delay in drop-out
    The drop-out must be taken without delay.
    Sanction: Free Kick on the 22-metre line.

    If the d/o is delayed to the extent it is penalisable - it has to have been deliberate?

    ditto..

    13.17 The opposing team
    (a)
    The opposing team must not charge over the 22-metre line before the ball is kicked.
    Sanction: Free Kick at the place of infringement.

    soo I get WR's point - but that doesn't really work as a general rule of thumb.

    didds

  7. #27

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    Default Re: Front row player forced up

    Quote Originally Posted by winchesterref View Post
    Also, the fact you have never seen a FK for it means nothing. Clearly as a group of elite referees they could all have decided that there is no way of "accidentally" standing, and therefore they automatically class it as deliberate.
    I was commenting on community rugby where the refs tend to actually blow the book, not some prearranged secret interpretation.

    And that still doesn't work with many other FK offenses - which have to in effect have been deliberate.

    I appreciate WR is trying to explain why a FK offence maybe a PK. But its nonsensical as a general rule of thumb.

    Next?

    didds

  8. #28
    Player or Coach ChrisR's Avatar

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    Default Re: Front row player forced up

    . . . . and the commentators are clueless. Rugby commentary is the US is universally pathetic. But, let's not get sidetracked.

  9. #29

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    Default Re: Front row player forced up

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisR View Post
    Here is the first example:

    https://youtu.be/nGCDojwP7vM?t=1161

    Just note how the Irish TH gets under the USA hooker and forces him up.

    Ask yourself this, Ireland is on their own 22, the ball is under the 8's foot, why are they driving? Not going 80m are they. They are looking for the PK. And the referee gave them a cheap one for something that's not even an offense.
    I could discuss this at considerable length. A lot of my time is taken up with scrum analysis and development work with referees outside of Match Observing.

    Based on what I saw I would perhaps question whether the Ireland T/H was square in the first place. However if you accept that he was, the following was observed from my perspective:-

    The USA No 2 was on a loser from the outset. Look at the L/H bind on the hooker. Not tight in the first place. The arm is loose. This usually happens when the L/H wants the freedom to move, whether this is to defend himself against a dominant T/H or a contrived move to exert pressure on the opposition ball, who have the put in.

    The pressure comes on by Ireland. The L/H loss shape and comes out. A gap appears and the hooker has no support. The hooker is going backwards. For the sake of safety, with pressure still being applied form the back five the only options he has are to collapse (PK) or to release bind and come up. In either case he is liable to penalty because it negates the drive. I quite often think it is unfortunate that a prop or particularly a hooker get blamed when in fact it is a failing by the pack as a whole; as perhaps in this case. I must admit that I prefer a referee to blame the pack as a whole for breaking up in such circumstances. By identifying a specific player this could lead to the referee putting himself in a corner and carding a player at a repeat offence when it is not the fault of the player concerned.

    In this clip I would not be blaming the T/H or the USA L/H or hooker but rather I would be expecting a call from the AR about the actions of the Ireland No 6. Look at his starting position and where he moves when the shove comes on. It is my opinion that he is the cause of the break up by driving in and up, and if anyone was to be penalised it should be him since it was the first clear and obvious offence. (At least from the camera perspective.) I would expect this to feature in the game review by the TO3.

    The comment about shoving 80M is not relevant because I believe a scrum wants to be dominant wherever it is to give the No 8 and the S/H the greatest number of options.

  10. #30

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    Default Re: Front row player forced up

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisR View Post
    Here's the next one, US vs. Canada. This time the Canadian hooker pops the US TH.

    https://youtu.be/EVDy_sTAgR8?t=571

    Don't get me wrong. I fully understand that US scrummaging is piss poor but my complaint is about the improper PK.
    Very difficult to extrapolate what you say from the clip because of a lack of view from the opposite side of the scrum. However I would tend to agree on balance that the offenders were the Canadians on this occasion. However I wouldn’t necessarily blame the hooker. In such circumstances I would expect the L/H to play a part also. The whole essence of L/H play is to get the T/H going up and back and he is in a better position to do this then the hooker. However if they work in tandem it can be easier. T is difficult for a hooker to pop a T/H by himself. The thing I picked up was the actions of the Canadian L/H,s feet through the scrum. He looked as if he was driving in and just before the T/H came up the L/H raised his foot, seemed to dip a bit an step out a bit; all advantageous when working with the hooker.

    Just from a personal point of view based on my observation experience and some experience in the front row, plus speaking to front row players, referees do tend to be a bit reluctant to penalise driving up.

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