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Thread: Lions Series - Accidental Offsite?

      
  1. #281

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    Default Re: Lions Series - Accidental Offsite?

    Quote Originally Posted by _antipodean_ View Post
    I'm convinced some people are letting allegiances dictate their responses. That's a charitable response to people that think Owens was on side and didn't play the ball.
    Hi, welcome to the forums, and implying/suggesting that "some people" might be biased is perhaps not the best way to make friends here.

    I used to be very literal about what is now clearly allowed by the law book, namely the momentum interpretation of the forward pass. It is, in law, the only interpretation allowed, even though my late father considered it a schoolboy error. Then again, in his prime he could keep up with the backs half his age, to their great surprise.

    It was John West who convinced me that it was OK to accept the momentum interpretation, "because of physics" (http://www.rugbydata.com/2014/07/08/...rish-referees/ as to his career), although he did respect the opinion of my father, who was also a cricket umpire.

    Ian_Cook is a Kiwi, and has provided an animated gif with imperfect alignment but a decent enough angle of the offside line that it is absolutely not CLEAR AND OBVIOUS, particularly in real time, and that is notwithstanding any of the potential infringements by Read before Ownes even touched the ball.

    As I've said before, my initial reaction with the quick whistle going that there was no advantage for the black ball carrier, I hadn't even noticed in real time (on a very shitty feed) that a Red player had briefly touched the ball, but to me it looked like a reckless challenge even before the whistle went (again, on a very shitty feed which may not even have had video and audio aligned).

    If the only material offence was in actual face an offside by Red #16, then advantage should have been played, and that is as far as I am concerned the only potential error by the referee. As a referee myself, with more than 150 matches/match days (Sevens/Tens), and having played around a thousand games over thirty years before that, I'm not really bothered by "allegiance" any more, myself. You win some, you lose some, and sometimes you have a cracker of a match and there is a draw at the end of it.

    I had no problem as a beginning referee with using the momentum interpretation of the forward pass as "not clear and obvious". We don't want unnecessary scrums at grassroots. I did however discuss it as passionately as you are now discussing this, although my primary motive was to be able to "sell the <wrong> decision" to the players and above all the spectators who saw a ball passed a yard before a line and caught a yard past it. Fortunately, the law book now has a clause in there which is less ambiguous, albeit not perfect (League has a better line).

    Some of the more consistent critics of the decision in the other direction to you are your own compatriots, with no allegiance to either the BIL or your friends across the Tasman sea that wear quite a bit of black clothing. Others who agree with you are English.

    In summary, could we please keep it to discussing the outcomes of decisions, rather than criticising the referee doing a job we couldn't at that level, and also not throwing aspersions on the reasons that (some) people post what they do?

  2. #282

    Advises in England
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    Default Re: Lions Series - Accidental Offsite?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian_Cook View Post
    I'm arguing that we should not be doing anything to further complicate an already over complicated set of Laws.

    Adding subjectivity is ALWAYS detrimental to the game in the long run.
    Disagree. Failing to allow for reality is worse.
    He trudg’d along unknowing what he sought,
    And whistled as he went, for want of thought.
    The Referee by John Dryden

  3. #283

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    Default Re: Lions Series - Accidental Offsite?

    In the country of French Flair, the term "Laissez faire" you are more likely to hear when discussing English-speaking referees (arbitres Anglo-Saxon) allowing "pick and go" - a strategy considered anti-jeu (unsportsmanlike)* over here. Since the ball-carrier is not allowing to voluntarily go to ground if the Laws of the game are correctly applied. Professionalism has ruined the amateur game.
    *The match in question was Toulouse v Munster in the H-Cup (2008) final.

    Also used when speaks of Margaret Thatcher's free market policy.
    Last edited by L'irlandais; 1 Week Ago at 20:07.
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  4. #284

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    Default Re: Lions Series - Accidental Offsite?

    Quote Originally Posted by L'irlandais View Post
    Since the ball-carrier is not allowing to voluntarily go to ground if the Laws of the game are correctly applied. .
    Go on, I'll bite... why not?

    As long as if challenged he releases the ball? (which is as a consequence of going to ground, not the going to ground in itself)

    didds

  5. #285

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    Default Re: Lions Series - Accidental Offsite?

    Quote Originally Posted by L'irlandais View Post
    Since the ball-carrier is not allowing to voluntarily go to ground if the Laws of the game are correctly applied.
    I'll tell you what... you're talking utter bollocks. It does not say anywhere in the Laws that a ball carrier cannot voluntarily go to ground?

    In fact, Law 14 specifically allows for the player to do so...

    LAW 14 DEFINITIONS
    ...
    A player who is not tackled, but who goes to ground while holding the ball, or a player who goes to ground and gathers the ball, must act immediately.


    Are you sure you are looking at the right Law book?

    THE LAWS OF RUGBY LEAGUE
    Section 11 : tackle and Play the Ball

    NOTES
    Voluntary tackle 4. A player in possession shall not deliberately and unnecessarily allow himself to be tackled by voluntarily falling to the ground when not held by an opponent. If a player drops on a loose ball he shall not remain on the ground waiting to be tackled if he has time to regain his feet and continue play.
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  6. #286

    Referees in Australia
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    Default Re: Lions Series - Accidental Offsite?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian_Cook View Post
    I'll tell you what... you're talking utter bollocks.
    I suspect he means "Since the team mates of the ball-carrier is not allowing to voluntarily go to ground" which you often see in pick & go situations.

    Only a guess, though.
    I, for one, like Roman numerals

  7. #287
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    Default Re: Lions Series - Accidental Offsite?

    I think we are now entirely off topic, so perhaps it is time for a new thread.

  8. #288

    Referees/Trains Referees in England
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    Default Re: Lions Series - Accidental Offsite?

    Originally Posted by Phil E View Post
    Pretty strong words.
    He may (or may not) have made mistakes, but there is no way you can describe his performance as incompetent.

    Quote Originally Posted by _antipodean_ View Post
    What word would you use? Inconsistent? Laissez-faire? Inept?
    I wouldn't use any of those words. Whether you agree or not this is a world class referee who has got to where he is by employing the opposite of all the words you are trying to attribute to him. You don't rise that far up the ladder if you are incompetent, inconsistent or inept. Just because he didn't referee in the style you would have liked doesn't mean he is no good.

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  9. #289

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    Default Re: Lions Series - Accidental Offsite?

    I had written a rather lengthy reply. However I shall not post it. The opinion quoted by the journalist, in that linked article, is that of Pierre Villepreux, a respected, valued member of the French Union. Far from talking bollocks as Ian puts it, he makes a very valid point.

    This place is more like Planet rugby each passing day.
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  10. #290

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    Default Re: Lions Series - Accidental Offsite?

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil E View Post
    Just because he didn't referee in the style you would have liked doesn't mean he is no good.

    But he did bottle it. Twice.

    didds

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