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Thread: Lions Series - Accidental Offsite?

      
  1. #271

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    Default Re: Lions Series - Accidental Offsite?

    Quote Originally Posted by OB.. View Post
    You are simply arguing that it makes life more difficult for referees. Yes - in the grey areas, like all decisions.
    I'm arguing that we should not be doing anything to further complicate an already over complicated set of Laws.

    Adding subjectivity is ALWAYS detrimental to the game in the long run.
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    Richard Nixon is the President who cannot tell the truth
    Donald Trump is the President who cannot tell the difference

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  2. #272

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    Lightbulb Re: Lions Series - Accidental Offsite?

    Ian, you are splitting hairs again. I was wrong to use the term " offside" when referring to the infringement, but did not suggest he should have been penalized. By quoting the Law applicable (in my #268) forum members can read for themselves and see it's best not to blindly ignore a Law like this, since by doing so, that is what opened the can of worms. The match referee might have better positioned himself to allow himself an unhindered run forward. RP is in the process of ducking his head to avoid the ball, as KR steps on the halfway line, ahead of the ball. I know at Elite level, he can (usually) rely on his team of 4, but at grass root level, we don't have the luxury of that.

    Perhaps, like many of us on here, RP was at that late stage in the game, starting to feel the effects of running around after players much younger than himself. (He will be 42 Year of age, next birthday.). We did have a very useful "PDF on referee positioning" circulating these forums when I started, but it has be archived.
    Last edited by L'irlandais; 1 Week Ago at 13:07.
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  3. #273

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    Default Re: Lions Series - Accidental Offsite?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian_Cook View Post
    Irrelevant. We were discussing being ahead of the kicker at the restart
    It's "irrelevant" because it doesn't fit your narrative.

    The principle of hanging your hat on something which is unclear remains constant and appropriate.

  4. #274

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    Arrow Re: Lions Series - Accidental Offsite?

    Couldn't find the PDF from the (iRB) Rugby Refereeing In Practice with for advice on suitable positioning at various stages of play. I had a look on World Rugby, but didn't find the document.

    Oz Union's Referee-in-practice has this advice for Kick-off (& restarts):


    REFEREE’S POSITION It is suggested the referee should start at a position a few metres from the ball, behind the halfway line in line with the kicker, with the ball between the referee and the kicking team. The referee should begin to move with the kicker and as soon as the ball is kicked then accelerate to be in line with where the ball pitches to be as close as practicable to where the next phase of play will develop (See Diagram 1.)
    BE PREPARED The referee should instinctively be prepared for the following incidents from a kick-off or drop kick from the half way line:-
    Checklist 3
    ...
    b) Kicker’s team is not behind the kicker and/or crosses the line early.
    * Remember, for a drop kick from the half way line it is the ball not the half way line that determines the off side line. Don’t forget to glance behind you too! 

    c) The cross kick
    ...

    The match ref was ahead of the kicker, which was the beginning of his woes...
    Had he kept the ball between himself and the kicking team ( i.e. Stood on this near side of Black10) he would have been looking across and seen KR was over the halfway line too soon, despite his (RP) being ahead of the kicker. KISS
    Last edited by L'irlandais; 1 Week Ago at 14:07.
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  5. #275

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    Default Re: Lions Series - Accidental Offsite?

    Quote Originally Posted by winchesterref View Post
    It's "irrelevant" because it doesn't fit your narrative.

    The principle of hanging your hat on something which is unclear remains constant and appropriate.


    What part of Owens being offside and playing the ball is unclear to you?

    Quote Originally Posted by L'irlandais View Post
    The match ref was ahead of the kicker, which was the beginning of his woes...
    Had he kept the ball between himself and the kicking team ( i.e. Stood on this near side of Black10) he would have been looking across and seen KR was over the halfway line too soon, despite his (RP) being ahead of the kicker. KISS
    His vision would likely have been compromised because of where AS was standing. You also can't penalise someone because you suspect they've crossed the line too soon. Particularly when they've taken a run-up. And that Read is no further progressed than Faletau is from the first kick at the commencement of the game.

    TBH this discussion about the chaser being in front of the kicker is a distraction from the topic, unless people want to broaden the discussion around Poite's incompetence in the Third Test.

  6. #276
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    Default Re: Lions Series - Accidental Offsite?

    Quote Originally Posted by L'irlandais View Post
    [/TEXTAREA]The match ref was ahead of the kicker, which was the beginning of his woes...
    Had he kept the ball between himself and the kicking team ( i.e. Stood on this near side of Black10) he would have been looking across and seen KR was over the halfway line too soon, despite his (RP) being ahead of the kicker. KISS
    To be fair, I'm not sure this is relevant in this case - if you have ARs it's likely that they'll be tasked with looking at offsides (though maybe not all the time).

  7. #277

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    Default Re: Lions Series - Accidental Offsite?

    Quote Originally Posted by _antipodean_ View Post
    TBH this discussion about the chaser being in front of the kicker is a distraction from the topic, unless people want to broaden the discussion around Poite's incompetence in the Third Test.
    Pretty strong words.

    He may (or may not) have made mistakes, but there is no way you can describe his performance as incompetent.

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  8. #278

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    Default Re: Lions Series - Accidental Offsite?

    Quote Originally Posted by _antipodean_ View Post
    What part of Owens being offside and playing the ball is unclear to you?
    That people are still arguing the ball was not knocked on, and that he was not offside suggests it is not as clear cut as you insist. Just because you believe it to be 100% obvious does not mean that every single other referee/player/fan who has had this discussion agrees. Forensic post match video analysis hasn't provided certainty, let alone at real time speed during the game.

    Personally once I thought that RP had decided it was a knock on by Red, then the actions of KO should be deemed deliberate and should have been penalised. When there was doubt introduced (? by JG) and RP wasn't sure of his actions, I don't see how he could have given anything other than an attacking scrum. If he wasn't sure after seeing the reply/AR input, he cannot give a penalty there.

    Question:
    If RP had asked GA to take the replay back to the kick off to run it through the full play, could he have done so? If he had then said "actually I think KR is in front of the kicker", would anyone be kicking up a fuss?
    Last edited by winchesterref; 1 Week Ago at 16:07.

  9. #279

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    Arrow Re: Lions Series - Accidental Offsite?

    Quote Originally Posted by _antipodean_ View Post
    ...
    What part of Owens being offside and playing the ball is unclear to you?



    His vision would likely have been compromised because of where AS was standing. You also can't penalise someone because you suspect they've crossed the line too soon. Particularly when they've taken a run-up. And that Read is no further progressed than Faletau is from the first kick at the commencement of the game.

    TBH this discussion about the chaser being in front of the kicker is a distraction from the topic, unless people want to broaden the discussion around Poite's incompetence in the Third Test.
    Your Union advises referees to position themselves so. What he may or may not have seen is open to debate. He was poorly positioned, by virtue of the fact he was in the way of the ball. Both AR missed the infringement too. The AR on this near side was watching the kicking team, while the far AR was watching the receivers on the 10m line. Don't know what age you are, but if at 42 you were/are fit enough to keep up with a match of that intensity, I am pretty sure we will get to read your name in the press. Personally I am not fit enough to keep up with low level U19s any more.

    It's not a distraction, it is the first infringement. We should not be discussing Red's offside, since Black infringed at the restart. Scrum at the center, Red put-in. The fact that at 78 minutes of play KR managed to get a hand to the ball should have raised some eyebrows; along the lines of either he's not given it his all for 80 minutes, or he was ahead of the kicker on that restart.

    I think RP had a decent game. Jerome Garces was slated in the press the week before for sticking to protocol and was also let down by his assistants when he correctly stuck to his guns about the card.
    I am convinced he changed RP's mind with some muted comments.
    Last edited by L'irlandais; 1 Week Ago at 16:07.
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  10. #280

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    Default Re: Lions Series - Accidental Offsite?

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil E View Post
    Pretty strong words.

    He may (or may not) have made mistakes, but there is no way you can describe his performance as incompetent.
    What word would you use? Inconsistent? Laissez-faire? Inept?

    Quote Originally Posted by winchesterref View Post
    That people are still arguing the ball was not knocked on, and that he was not offside suggests it is not as clear cut as you insist.
    I'm convinced some people are letting allegiances dictate their responses. That's a charitable response to people that think Owens was on side and didn't play the ball.

    Question:
    If RP had asked GA to take the replay back to the kick off to run it through the full play, could he have done so? If he had then said "actually I think KR is in front of the kicker", would anyone be kicking up a fuss?
    I'd be irritated that he had enforced a law he'd ignored for the entirety of the match with considerably less certainty than the infringement by Owens, let alone other glaring examples throughout the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by L'irlandais View Post
    Your Union advises referees to position themselves so. What he may or may not have seen is open to debate.
    It is certainly debatable. He still would have seen only one-half of the field and likely had that vision obscured by other players. As you point out, both ARs missed this possible infringement by Read, as they had done with Faletau at the very beginning.

    But the ref, TMO and one AR agreed that Owens was offside, played the ball and hence it was a penalty to Black.

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