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Thread: New tactics being deployed from new law changes

      
  1. #11

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    Default Re: New tactics being deployed from new law changes

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian_Cook View Post
    ... there has to be a tackle first, so if the catcher is brought to ground very quickly (easy to say not so easy to do) and the ruck-formers get there immediately, then the ruck might form half a second quicker than normal. Otherwise, it will be no different from before.
    This determination of whether or not this applies only in the event of the tackle is key. If not, then the defender may himself create the ruck offside lines, putting his own team mates offside by the very act of arriving at the ball on the ground (ruck formed) and then picking it up (legitimate handling in the ruck by the former of said ruck).
    Don't feed the pedant!

  2. #12

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    Default Re: New tactics being deployed from new law changes

    Two questions
    1. Does being ''over the tackled player'' actually start the ruck from a defender's point of view , allowing for the fact that the ball maybe placed a good arms length behind the tackled player , possibly a metre away from the tackler ,so he / she is not over it yet ?
    2. When the first player to arrive places hands on the ball is it not ruck over ? So he/she can be tackled from any direction ?

  3. #13

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    Default Re: New tactics being deployed from new law changes

    Quote Originally Posted by Dixie View Post
    This determination of whether or not this applies only in the event of the tackle is key. If not, then the defender may himself create the ruck offside lines, putting his own team mates offside by the very act of arriving at the ball on the ground (ruck formed) and then picking it up (legitimate handling in the ruck by the former of said ruck).
    Answering my own question (in RFU-land anyway), Phil E posted official guidance in another thread:

    Guidance Notes:
    The “one man” ruck only applies after a tackle and that normal ruck law applies to all other situations
    e.g. player voluntarily going to ground, ball on ground in open play etc. The offside line is formed when a
    player from either team arrive over the ball
    Don't feed the pedant!

  4. #14

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    Default Re: New tactics being deployed from new law changes

    Quote Originally Posted by wrighty View Post
    Two questions
    1. Does being ''over the tackled player'' actually start the ruck from a defender's point of view , allowing for the fact that the ball maybe placed a good arms length behind the tackled player , possibly a metre away from the tackler ,so he / she is not over it yet ?
    2. When the first player to arrive places hands on the ball is it not ruck over ? So he/she can be tackled from any direction ?
    Qu 1 Should read ''being over the ball '' ! Typo !

  5. #15

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    Default Re: New tactics being deployed from new law changes

    Quote Originally Posted by didds View Post
    You are wrong

    For quite some while now (ie years) at a tackle jacklers and supporters etc could ONLY approach the ball from their side of the tackle and "through the gate". This has not changed so any jackler still has to approach the ball "through the gate". [1]

    Until these latest changes the one exception was [1] the tackler who could once he had regained his feet then approach the ball from any direction - this allowance has been removed in these new laws.

    So summarising

    - tackle
    - any subsequent players including the tackler (and/or I suppose the tackled player!) has to approach the ball "through the gate".
    - once one player is over the ball it is now a ruck and ruck offside lines appear.

    didds
    Thanks Didds, however, my comment was that
    ...old laws apply in open play so a player can approach from any direction to jackle for the ball and a defender can approach from any direction to clear out the jackler...
    ; this being quite separate from the tackle situation.

    Clarification has been provided in RFU Guidance:
    The “one man” ruck only applies after a tackle and that normal ruck law applies to all other situations e.g. player voluntarily going to ground, ball on ground in open play etc.
    as referenced earlier.

    Therefore, the one-man-ruck and subsequent off-side occurs at tackle only. Player going to ground in open play requires one player from each side, on their feet, in contact over the ball in order for a ruck to be formed and thereby create offside lines.
    Keep smiling!

  6. #16

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    Default Re: New tactics being deployed from new law changes

    Quote Originally Posted by Dixie View Post
    Answering my own question (in RFU-land anyway), Phil E posted official guidance in another thread:

    Guidance Notes:
    The “one man” ruck only applies after a tackle and that normal ruck law applies to all other situations
    e.g. player voluntarily going to ground, ball on ground in open play etc. The offside line is formed when a
    player from either team arrive over the ball
    Right, so my earlier suggestion is valid. The defending team can defuse the OP's suggestion, and prevent the kick chasers from making a quick ruck to catch retiring players offside to get a cheap 3 pointer, by dropping straight to ground so that there cannot be a tackle. No tackle = no one man ruck.
    "Never underestimate the power of the Internet to lend unwarranted credibility to the colossally misinformed"
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  7. #17

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    Default Re: New tactics being deployed from new law changes

    Quote Originally Posted by didds View Post
    You are wrong

    For quite some while now (ie years) at a tackle jacklers and supporters etc could ONLY approach the ball from their side of the tackle and "through the gate". This has not changed so any jackler still has to approach the ball "through the gate". [1]
    didds, Jolly Roger is talking about Law 14 which is open play. When a player goes to ground without being tackled, there is no gate. Players can arrive from any direction to contest the ball.
    "Never underestimate the power of the Internet to lend unwarranted credibility to the colossally misinformed"
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  8. #18

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    Default Re: New tactics being deployed from new law changes

    Quote Originally Posted by Jolly Roger View Post
    I have been approached by a coach from my local club who wanted to discuss the new scrum laws, in particular the position of the SH and the need for a front row player to strike for the ball. His belief is that a referee standing on the same side as the SH will not be able to see whether the ball is put in perfectly straight as it will be in line with the LHP's outer foot and so long as one foot moves the ref will not be able to discern whether a strike was credible. His thinking was to get the LHP to move a foot slightly as part of the initial drive forward. The other option is for hooker to move his left foot forward slightly with ball passing behind it, whilst still in a good driving positon (as no need to twist in the strike as in days of yore) and continue with the 8 man shove.

    I do think that the position of the SH in line with the attacking front row will make it more difficult for the ref to see exactly what is going on. This may also obstruct the view of defending THP's bind as will be obscured by the SH.
    Ignoring the technicality that the "attacking" side is based on field position rather than the side putting in:

    The first responsibility of the referee is player safety. In the time of "the hit" referees would completely ignore skewed feeds, for the simple reason that getting the scrum over quickly (aka Continuity of Play) was more worthwhile than letting the other side win the ball against the head occasionally (aka Fair Contest).

    If anything, the fact that the SH stands a ball's length to their (usually) left as they put the ball in will make it easier to detect a crooked feed, and don't forget that the referee has two sides to stand at. The more important issue is pushing before the ball is in, which is unchanged.

    It is understandable that coaches from ones local club would like to know what the new deal is, but remember that referees are also looking for patterns. And it is hard enough to look at the angle of the feed, the bindings of all four props, as well as early feet up by hookers - and that is by 1960's standards!

    The topic is "new tactics", but the crooked feed has been around since Rugby League has existed, in other words for more than a century. I was first informed of the "step to the left" trick some around the turn of the millennium, by a SH poacher turned gamekeeper (fellow referee) who never used it when I was hooking, nor a skew feed.

    Younger referees may have to adapt, but those of us that have been in rugby for decades...

  9. #19

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    Default Re: New tactics being deployed from new law changes

    Quote Originally Posted by Rushforth View Post
    Ignoring the technicality that the "attacking" side is based on field position rather than the side putting in:

    The first responsibility of the referee is player safety. In the time of "the hit" referees would completely ignore skewed feeds, for the simple reason that getting the scrum over quickly (aka Continuity of Play) was more worthwhile than letting the other side win the ball against the head occasionally (aka Fair Contest).

    If anything, the fact that the SH stands a ball's length to their (usually) left as they put the ball in will make it easier to detect a crooked feed, and don't forget that the referee has two sides to stand at. The more important issue is pushing before the ball is in, which is unchanged.

    It is understandable that coaches from ones local club would like to know what the new deal is, but remember that referees are also looking for patterns. And it is hard enough to look at the angle of the feed, the bindings of all four props, as well as early feet up by hookers - and that is by 1960's standards!

    The topic is "new tactics", but the crooked feed has been around since Rugby League has existed, in other words for more than a century. I was first informed of the "step to the left" trick some around the turn of the millennium, by a SH poacher turned gamekeeper (fellow referee) who never used it when I was hooking, nor a skew feed.

    Younger referees may have to adapt, but those of us that have been in rugby for decades...
    ...to their right. They will stand closer to their own scrum
    "Never underestimate the power of the Internet to lend unwarranted credibility to the colossally misinformed"
    - Jay "Utah" Windley

  10. #20

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    Default Re: New tactics being deployed from new law changes

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian_Cook View Post
    didds, Jolly Roger is talking about Law 14 which is open play. When a player goes to ground without being tackled, there is no gate. Players can arrive from any direction to contest the ball.
    sorry both - I'd missed that completely!

    DOH!

    didds

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