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  1. #21

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    Default Re: no signal from referee

    Refereed my first game under this new law today, and what a bloody stupid rule it is. Scrums were generally more of a mess as they are generally not fully square and stable before the put in, yes you can penalise the SH for putting in early, but I found it more difficult to manage the scrums and talk to them to get them square and stable as I've already moved away to allows the SH to feed when they want.

    I'm not sure what problem this change is trying to cure, maybe just to speed everything up, but for me it didn't work very well. Maybe it'll just take some getting used to.

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    Default Re: no signal from referee

    Quote Originally Posted by Paule23 View Post
    Refereed my first game under this new law today, and what a bloody stupid rule it is. Scrums were generally more of a mess as they are generally not fully square and stable before the put in, yes you can penalise the SH for putting in early, but I found it more difficult to manage the scrums and talk to them to get them square and stable as I've already moved away to allows the SH to feed when they want.

    I'm not sure what problem this change is trying to cure, maybe just to speed everything up, but for me it didn't work very well. Maybe it'll just take some getting used to.
    Agree completely on having less control. I reffed several training games yesterday. I stayed in close until I was happy with stability, then backed away. Opposite the put-in was easier as I'd expected - maybe that's a solution, but I usually go touchline side of the scrum so I can see across the pitch. SH's were still looking to me for a nod, but I'm sure they'll uncondition themselves soon enough.

  3. #23

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    Default Re: no signal from referee

    Quote Originally Posted by Nigib View Post
    Agree completely on having less control.
    so what is the difference between "now" and before the "ref gives the nod" previous law was introduced?

    didds

  4. #24

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    Default Re: no signal from referee

    Quote Originally Posted by Guyseep View Post
    I'm not a fan of the "no signal" clause. I'm not sure what it accomplishes. In fact I think it may skew the scrum towards the team putting the ball in even more.
    Good. And so it should. Remember, they are more often than not, putting the ball in because the opponent's infringed.

    Referees telling the SH to put the ball in should never have been introduced in the first place. It has led to the side throwing in (that is the non-infringing side) being disadvantaged at the scrum put in.

    Teams quickly worked out that if they were not throwing the ball in, but knew when it was going to be fed, then with an 8-7 pushing advantage in the scrum, they would be able to time their shove to make it very hard for the opposing hooker to hook the ball. End result was the ludicrous situation we see frequently where the ball is in the tunnel, and neither scrum is strong enough to push the other off the ball, and neither hooker is willing to risk hooking.

    It got better when "Yes 9" was dropped and became a tap or a hand signal, and thankfully, WR have finally realised their mistake, and have removed this ill-advised procedure from the game altogether

    However, its a pity they have only done half a job in returning the scrum to what it is supposed to be... a HOOKING contest. Only once the ball is hooked should it become a pushing contest. IMO, what they should have done here is make the scrum half throw the ball down the middle but make it compulsory for BOTH hookers to strike for the ball, and no pushing until that happened.
    Last edited by Ian_Cook; 03-09-17 at 12:09.
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  5. #25

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    Default Re: no signal from referee

    Quote Originally Posted by didds View Post
    so what is the difference between "now" and before the "ref gives the nod" previous law was introduced?

    didds
    Previously, the SH had to wait for a tap if on same side, or a clear signal if on the other - this gave me the flexibility to let the scrum settle before moving to the next phase, regardless of how close I was to the scrum itself. I feel it was safer than the new approach, as my focus was on the scrum, then the SH - now I have to be aware of both. Not having this clear step I can see the potential for arbitrary calls on the SH delaying or early engage. I'll reserve full judgement until after I've done a few games.

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    Default Re: no signal from referee

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian_Cook View Post
    Referees telling the SH to put the ball
    In theory, they simply told the scrum half when the scrum was properly set. Then the scrumhalf could decide his own timing (within reason). Unfortunately it rarely worked that way.
    He trudg’d along unknowing what he sought,
    And whistled as he went, for want of thought.
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  7. #27

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    Default Re: no signal from referee

    My first game the scrums were a bit "mobile" and I struggled slightly as described by others above.

    Second and third games, no issues. Pinged the scrums if the moved past the mark. Reset them if they weren't stable, with the threat that we would continue resetting ad-infinitum until they were stable.
    Also briefed the SH to hold the ball at his chest until it was stable, then when it was stable to move the ball to his knees and straight in (i.e. don't hold it at your knees). 90% of the time it goes straight in without any delay.

    "SH, you get it in as soon as its stable, if its not stable I will deal with that."

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    Default Re: no signal from referee

    ^^^^^ Yes.

    But tthree questions:

    Did you stand at the tunnel or let him?

    Did he feed it at 'set' and, if he did, was that OK with you?

    Was there any discussion/disagreement on what was 'stable'?

  9. #29

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    Default Re: no signal from referee

    Signalling the scrum half came in when?

    It's not like we're going back to a practice from decades ago. This should be recent history and recent memory, and not too tricky.

    I did my first competitive match yesterday, and had nary a problem. Told the scrum halves that if I had a problem with the scrum, I'd tell them. Absent that, it's between them and the hooker.
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  10. #30

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    Default Re: no signal from referee

    Quote Originally Posted by SimonSmith View Post
    Signalling the scrum half came in when?

    It's not like we're going back to a practice from decades ago. This should be recent history and recent memory, and not too tricky.
    Trialled in 2013, then came into Law in 2014 when CTPE was replaced by CBS.

    Quote Originally Posted by SimonSmith View Post
    I did my first competitive match yesterday, and had nary a problem. Told the scrum halves that if I had a problem with the scrum, I'd tell them. Absent that, it's between them and the hooker.
    Agree. These guys train (or should train) at this to get their timing right.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil E View Post
    Also briefed the SH to hold the ball at his chest until it was stable, then when it was stable to move the ball to his knees and straight in (i.e. don't hold it at your knees).

    "SH, you get it in as soon as its stable, if its not stable I will deal with that."
    Bloody excellent. That is good advice to any referee.
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