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    Default illegal binding

    been watching the GK championship game between Hartpury and Bristol. I am bemused by the failure to see but one successful completion of a scrum without Bristol being pinged for not being able to stay square.

    for those that will have been watching, I can see the Hartpury TH slipping his long bind from the shirt, on the "crouch", to the armpit once engaged. This surely can't be legal? It is thus forcing the Bristol player to turn in and allowing the Hartpury TH to stand up thereby winning multiple penalties and a subsequent YC for the Bristol LH.

    Not once has the official taken to standing the problem side of side of the scrum to check?

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    Default Re: illegal binding

    Haven't seen it, but as described - that's basic scrum management.

    I had a similar issue. I had to keep telling Blue 3 to bind higher on the back. His bind was on a leverage point on the Pink 1's arm, and causing the fold in. Told him once that he needed to correct it, and made a point of standing next to him for a few scrums. 15 minutes later, it went in on his side, and his arm was in the wrong place. One PK, and issue solved.
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    Default Re: illegal binding

    Quote Originally Posted by ChuckieB View Post
    for those that will have been watching, I can see the Hartpury TH slipping his long bind from the shirt, on the "crouch", to the armpit once engaged. This surely can't be legal? It is thus forcing the Bristol player to turn in and allowing the Hartpury TH to stand up thereby winning multiple penalties and a subsequent YC for the Bristol LH.
    I don't understand how binding on the armpit part of the shirt would "force" the LH to turn in?
    It could exert a downward pressure which might cause him to fold under or go down, but not Turn IN?

    Were there Appointed AR's at this game (I assume there were), so there would have been someone looking at the other side to the ref.

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    Default Re: illegal binding

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil E View Post
    I don't understand how binding on the armpit part of the shirt would "force" the LH to turn in?
    It could exert a downward pressure which might cause him to fold under or go down, but not Turn IN?
    I obviously haven;t see this, but what COULD be happening is armpit bind allows the binder to create a "V" with his upper and lower arm which can be used as a lever against the other prop. ie the elbow is turned in towards the tunnel, twisting the other prop. That's only a "maybe".

    didds

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    Default Re: illegal binding

    Quote Originally Posted by didds View Post
    I obviously haven;t see this, but what COULD be happening is armpit bind allows the binder to create a "V" with his upper and lower arm which can be used as a lever against the other prop. ie the elbow is turned55 in towards the tunnel, twisting the other prop. That's only a "maybe".

    didds
    The LH (Rupert Harden) grabbing the armpit and actually lifting, so more an inverted V and probably driving upwards.

    The penalties were given against 3 LHs; the original who then went off with a head knock, the replacement who then got the YC as soon as he came on under the cumulative warnings when and then the "suitably qualified" replacement when the next scrum was awarded. They can't all have been that poor.

    In fairness the ref may have been relying on the AR for some feedback. The scrums in question were all pretty much mostly within 15m of touch with him choosing to remain infield on the side of the put in.

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    Default Re: illegal binding

    Quote Originally Posted by didds View Post
    I obviously haven;t see this, but what COULD be happening is armpit bind allows the binder to create a "V" with his upper and lower arm which can be used as a lever against the other prop. ie the elbow is turned in towards the tunnel, twisting the other prop. That's only a "maybe".

    didds
    To me, this sounds like the only way a bind on the armpit by the TH could be used to turn in.

    I have banged this particular drum many times before (both here and on other forums when I have been asked about scrummaging)... a bent arm is much, much stronger than a straight one (try banging a nail in with a straight arm).

    By binding on the armpit, the THP is able to form a "V" as you say, and bring his biceps, triceps and deltoids into play to turn his opponent inwards. The THP will pull the LHP's armpit down, forward, and toward him (inwards), then once he has got the LHP's outside shoulder compromised, he will finish the job by pushing his shoulder inwards.

    If the bind arm is kept straight, then only the deltoid (the weakest of the three) can be used to turn (very much more difficult). The biceps can then only be used to bend the arm from straight, and that will pull the LHP towards him, helping to lock the scrum and keep it up and stable.

    In short... don't let the props shorten their binds... if you do, you are enabling their malarkey potentially creating trouble for yourself.
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    Default Re: illegal binding

    If the TH is getting popped out it's most likely the LH getting his head in the TH's chest and driving up. If that's the case then binding won't be much of a factor.

    If the TH has a short bind (armpit) he won't have much leverage to pull the LH around and in but he can push the LH's elbow/arm down and that can get the LH angled in but he then won't be in a good posture to drive up.

    What's interesting to me is that the TH wasn't pinged for 'standing up' (a pet peeve of mine).

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    Default Re: illegal binding

    Quote Originally Posted by ChuckieB View Post
    The LH (Rupert Harden) grabbing the armpit and actually lifting, .
    Was Harden playing at LHP? He's usually listed as No. 3... that's THP. I'm pretty sure Dan Murphy plays LHP for Hartpury.

    Did I misunderstand your OP?
    Last edited by Ian_Cook; 04-09-17 at 13:09.
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    Default Re: illegal binding

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian_Cook View Post
    To me, this sounds like the only way a bind on the armpit by the TH could be used to turn in.

    I have banged this particular drum many times before (both here and on other forums when I have been asked about scrummaging)... a bent arm is much, much stronger than a straight one (try banging a nail in with a straight arm).

    By binding on the armpit, the THP is able to form a "V" as you say, and bring his biceps, triceps and deltoids into play to turn his opponent inwards. The THP will pull the LHP's armpit down, forward, and toward him (inwards), then once he has got the LHP's outside shoulder compromised, he will finish the job by pushing his shoulder inwards.

    If the bind arm is kept straight, then only the deltoid (the weakest of the three) can be used to turn (very much more difficult). The biceps can then only be used to bend the arm from straight, and that will pull the LHP towards him, helping to lock the scrum and keep it up and stable.

    In short... don't let the props shorten their binds... if you do, you are enabling their malarkey potentially creating trouble for yourself.
    One of the selective points I am looking to cover in the pre match briefing. Something to put them on notice that I know what I am looking at. Long binds with no slippage.

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    Default Re: illegal binding

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian_Cook View Post
    Was Harden playing at LHP? He's usually listed as No. 3... that's THP. I'm pretty sure Dan Murphy plays LHP for Hartpury.

    Did I misunderstand your OP?
    No. You are right, I reversed them incorrectly. Aplogies. I am still shouting at the TV because it was so bad and we had no commentators that were conversant (nothing new there!) with Harden's TH tactics.

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