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  1. #101

    Referees in England


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    Default Re: General discussion on this


  2. #102

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    Default Re: General discussion on this

    Quote Originally Posted by Dickie E View Post
    It is impossible for a player to get onside without traversing a passing channelh
    Rubbish!

    The player can wait until the pass has already been made and the ball has moved on or he can get his arse into gear an RUN HARD to beat the pass.
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  3. #103

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    Ian_Cook's Avatar

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    Default Re: General discussion on this

    Quote Originally Posted by crossref View Post
    Actually, the poster on that site "Oui Jerome" pretty much encapsulates my thoughts on this....

    "But what did Fotuali'i do that was contrary to sportsmanship, exactly?
    - He turns to pass;
    - Brits is in his way;
    - Fotuali'i is then forced to pause;
    - compare Itoje's position before and after the pause - before Fotuali'i is forced to pause, Itoje is just getting going from a standing start, but by the time Fotuali'i actually passes the ball, Itoje has made two paces forward and is building speed toward the attacking line;
    - so if Fotuali'i passes the ball to the intended recipient after pausing, it's either a hospital pass or an intercept;
    - so he throws the ball at the offside player who took away his options and gets a penalty.
    Any other decision encourages offside play / lazy runners"

    By just being where he was, crouched or not, however well-intentioned he was, White 2 was having an impact on play, therefore his infringing is material. I can't see any way this can be argued around.
    Last edited by Ian_Cook; 14-09-17 at 00:09.
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  4. #104

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    Dickie E's Avatar

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    Default Re: General discussion on this

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian_Cook View Post

    The player can wait until the pass has already been made and the ball has moved on

    then you'd probably ping him for:

    11.9 Loitering
    A player who remains in an offside position is loitering
    I, for one, like Roman numerals

  5. #105

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    Default Re: General discussion on this

    Quote Originally Posted by Dickie E View Post
    then you'd probably ping him for:

    11.9 Loitering
    A player who remains in an offside position is loitering
    No, I wouldn't, because the second sentence of that Law (which you left out) says...

    A loiterer who prevents the opposing team from playing the ball as they wish is taking part in the game, and is penalised.


    So, as long as White 2 stays out of the passing channel, he is not taking part in the game, so he is fine.

    However, I will expect him to continue to retire after the ball is gone, because of the third sentence of that Law (which you also left out)...

    The referee makes sure that the loiterer does not benefit from being put onside by the opposing team’s action.


    I have often heard referees (GJ is one I recall clearly, WB is another) telling players who might not have complied with Law quickly enough at tackle/ruck, to stay where they are.

    For example, "White 7 stay there!" or"Green 14, stay on the ground"

    The referee has realised that these players are going to be in the way of the opposition if they try to comply with Law (rolling away/getting up/retiring) so its better to leave them technically infringing for the moment. Often they will just have a word afterwards..."White 7, you can roll quicker than that!"

    For mine, this is great situational awareness by the referee and excellent game management.
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  6. #106

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    Default Re: General discussion on this

    We seem to have reached the round and round and round point with entrenched positions.

    How about we leave this one here? There is plenty in the thread for people to read, understand the laws and make there own judgement about how they would interpret such a situation. Any need for more debate?

  7. #107
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    Talking Re: General discussion on this

    On a technical point, if you are accepting of the fact that he threw the ball deliberately at him, you couldn't ping SB for loitering as he didn't prevent the player from playing the ball as he wished. He wished to gain the penalty and so acted accordingly by choice.

    No?

    I do like Ian's observation of the game management technique that he identified. In this instance it was perhaps unfortunate it was also WB! I don't blame him though as it's an added skill not a mandatory one.

    A great example for the referees coaching manual. With a discrete issue dealing with the laws, diffrent outcomes and then potential opportunities on how such situations may be better managed when circumstances permit.

    Move on?

  8. #108
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    Default Re: General discussion on this

    This really has created some interesting discussion
    Dave
    Berkshire Society Ref (L11)

  9. #109
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    Default Re: General discussion on this

    Quote Originally Posted by damo View Post
    By his own choice he put himself in a position that enabled the team in possession to do what they liked - and they chose to deliberately throw it at a player.

    I don't know what to do in this case - scrum is not justified in any law that I'm familiar with and play on just feels wrong somehow.

    However I hate the idea that we have to reward the cynical play with a PK.
    11.
    6
    What about this one ?A
    ccidental offside

    11.6 (a)
    When an offside player cannot avoid being touched by the ball or by a team-mate carrying it, the player is accidentally offside. If the player’s team gains no advantage from this, play continues. If the player’s team gains an advantage, a scrum is formed with the opposing team throwing in the ball.

    Getting hit with the ball when you are crouching trying to avoid being so hit could easily be considered 'unable to avoid' - & therefore in virtually every instance it will slow down the possession team, thus a scrum follows

    The problem here seems to be that Ruck offside Law contradicts this directly

    thoughts?

    Last edited by VM75; 15-09-17 at 21:09.

  10. #110

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    Default Re: General discussion on this

    Quote Originally Posted by VM75 View Post
    11.6
    What about this one ?Accidental offside
    11.6 (a)
    When an offside player cannot avoid being touched by the ball or by a team-mate carrying it, the player is accidentally offside. If the player’s team gains no advantage from this, play continues. If the player’s team gains an advantage, a scrum is formed with the opposing team throwing in the ball.

    [/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=#2A3333][FONT=fs_blakeregular]Getting hit with the ball when you are crouching trying to avoid being so hit could easily be considered 'unable to avoid' - & therefore in virtually every instance it will slow down the possession team, thus a scrum follows

    The problem here seems to be that Ruck offside Law contradicts this directly

    thoughts?
    Because the 12 year old forgot to draft it clearly enough to refer only to an offside player of the team in possession. Oposition players cannot be 'accidently offside' in open play by definition.

    Don't make this into another pedantic argument.
    Be reasonable - do it my way.

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