Page 2 of 5 FirstFirst 12345 LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 47

Thread: When is the No8 fair game?

      
  1. #11

    Resident Club Coach
    didds's Avatar

    Soc/Assoc
    N/A
    Grade
    Club Coach
    Join Date
    27 Jan 04
    Posts
    8,904
    Thanks (Received)
    43
    Likes (Received)
    749

    Default Re: When is the No8 fair game?

    Quote Originally Posted by Balones View Post
    Raised at Panel meeting.
    Pick up with one hand - ball out - use it. No difference to previous interpretation of laws when it was at the back and at his/her feet. If you pick up and remain in the scrum you have caused an obstruction, if nothing else.
    So... #8 bound with one arm, picks up with the other, now oppo scrumhalf just has to bump the left flanker to claim accidental obstruction and scrum turnover?

    Just checking?

    didds

  2. #12

    Referees in England
    Balones's Avatar

    Soc/Assoc
    Leics
    Grade
    NP Performance Reviewer
    Join Date
    24 Oct 06
    Posts
    561
    Thanks (Received)
    27
    Likes (Received)
    140

    Default Re: When is the No8 fair game?

    Quote Originally Posted by didds View Post
    So... #8 bound with one arm, picks up with the other, now oppo scrumhalf just has to bump the left flanker to claim accidental obstruction and scrum turnover?

    Just checking?

    didds
    Once picked up the No8 has the same options as before - pass it or run with it. Similarly any other player has the same options and restrictions.

    If I was coaching a team I would say that reaching into the second row is going to slow down your ability slightly to break away and run with the ball and the quickest option is to offload to the S/H. However if the scrum is wheeling a little this may give a bit more time to breakaway?

    Why pick up with one hand? You have more chance of knocking on I would have thought. But if you pick up with one hand you have the same time restrictions as before. As for running into the W/F - strictly speaking you couldn't do that before because you are expected to keep off the scrum.
    Last edited by Balones; 02-10-17 at 09:10.

  3. #13

    Resident Club Coach
    didds's Avatar

    Soc/Assoc
    N/A
    Grade
    Club Coach
    Join Date
    27 Jan 04
    Posts
    8,904
    Thanks (Received)
    43
    Likes (Received)
    749

    Default Re: When is the No8 fair game?

    so basically its just going to get messy as scrumhalves half climb over breaking flankers to get at the #8?

    that'll work...

    didds
    Last edited by didds; 02-10-17 at 10:10.

  4. #14

    Referees in England
    Balones's Avatar

    Soc/Assoc
    Leics
    Grade
    NP Performance Reviewer
    Join Date
    24 Oct 06
    Posts
    561
    Thanks (Received)
    27
    Likes (Received)
    140

    Default Re: When is the No8 fair game?

    Quote Originally Posted by didds View Post
    so basically its just going to get mkessy adn scrumhalves half climb over breaking flankers to get at the #8?

    that'll work...

    didds
    I'll admit that making contact with the scrum by S/Hs and W/Fs altering their angle has not been as rigidly policed as it should have been or should be. However, what you described is not permitted.
    Are you describing the W/F breaking away at the same time as the No8 and bumping into the S/H? In which case we have a simple case of the W/F obstructing the S/H if he alters his direction of movement. If the S/H deliberately runs into the W/F we either have a play on because the S/H has disadvantaged himself or if there is more robust contact then we have playing the player without the ball - foul play.

  5. #15

    Referees in England


    Soc/Assoc
    LSRFUR
    Grade
    10
    Join Date
    14 Sep 09
    Posts
    14,246
    Thanks (Received)
    95
    Likes (Received)
    1282

    Default Re: When is the No8 fair game?

    I don't really understand what is the problem that this Law trial is meant to fix. I can see various problems it creates , as in the posts above, but have lost sight of what the benefits of the change are supposed to be ..

  6. #16
    Rugby Club Member

    Soc/Assoc
    None
    Grade
    Select Grade
    Join Date
    28 Feb 17
    Posts
    977
    Thanks (Received)
    4
    Likes (Received)
    99
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default Re: When is the No8 fair game?

    Quote Originally Posted by crossref View Post
    I don't really understand what is the problem that this Law trial is meant to fix. I can see various problems it creates , as in the posts above, but have lost sight of what the benefits of the change are supposed to be ..
    Speeds ball back into play as it gives an option that will end the scrum sooner.

  7. #17

    Resident Club Coach
    didds's Avatar

    Soc/Assoc
    N/A
    Grade
    Club Coach
    Join Date
    27 Jan 04
    Posts
    8,904
    Thanks (Received)
    43
    Likes (Received)
    749

    Default Re: When is the No8 fair game?

    Quote Originally Posted by Balones View Post
    I'll admit that making contact with the scrum by S/Hs and W/Fs altering their angle has not been as rigidly policed as it should have been or should be. However, what you described is not permitted.
    Are you describing the W/F breaking away at the same time as the No8 and bumping into the S/H? In which case we have a simple case of the W/F obstructing the S/H if he alters his direction of movement. If the S/H deliberately runs into the W/F we either have a play on because the S/H has disadvantaged himself or if there is more robust contact then we have playing the player without the ball - foul play.
    Yep - basically. If the scrum is over when the still bound #8 picks up the ball with his free hand, then the s/half (not in the pocket of course) is able to tackle the #8. However as the scrum is now over (but #8 still bound - just) the flank can also unbind. Now you have the flank potentially obstructing the scrum half who is trying to get to the #8. Which is what i asked above. I thought you were disagreeing with me that the flank would be obstructing but I think i misread that :-)

    In short - the scrum is over. so whether the flank stands or remains down the law requiring the s/half no contact with the flank is now redundant - there is no scrum for the scrumhalf to touch.

    So again - still bound #8 picks up one handed, s/half bumps flanker, scrum turnover for accidental offside then.

    didds

    - - - Updated - - -

    another thought - does the #8 actually have top pick up? Or remaining bound can he use his free hand to "flap" the ball back from the second row along the ground?

    didds

  8. #18

    Referees in England


    Soc/Assoc
    LSRFUR
    Grade
    10
    Join Date
    14 Sep 09
    Posts
    14,246
    Thanks (Received)
    95
    Likes (Received)
    1282

    Default Re: When is the No8 fair game?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChuckieB View Post
    Speeds ball back into play as it gives an option that will end the scrum sooner.
    yes, I guess, but I can't ever remember thinking : if only the #8 was allowed to reach into the scrum it would all end sooner.
    I think
    - it will be seldom used --- it's obviously a lot easier/faster for a #8 to pick up a ball at his feet
    - when it is used, far from seeing the ball swiftly away at the back of the scrum, we'll see a pile up as flankers who can see the ball all unbind, the SH makes a lunge for the 8, and it's all really messy.

    If the ref lets the #8 get away with it, I expect we'll see the #8 reaching with one hand and rolling the ball back along the ground to get back to a postion where he can unbind and grab the ball in one easy movement, in the traditional way. Is that an improvement? I am not sure. (edit -- I see didds has just had pretty much the same thought, in the post above. Great minds etc etc)

  9. #19
    Rugby Club Member

    Soc/Assoc
    None
    Grade
    Select Grade
    Join Date
    28 Feb 17
    Posts
    977
    Thanks (Received)
    4
    Likes (Received)
    99
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default Re: When is the No8 fair game?

    Quote Originally Posted by crossref View Post
    yes, I guess, but I can't ever remember thinking : if only the #8 was allowed to reach into the scrum it would all end sooner.
    I think
    - it will be seldom used --- it's obviously a lot easier/faster for a #8 to pick up a ball at his feet
    - when it is used, far from seeing the ball swiftly away at the back of the scrum, we'll see a pile up as flankers who can see the ball all unbind, the SH makes a lunge for the 8, and it's all really messy.

    If the ref lets the #8 get away with it, I expect we'll see the #8 reaching with one hand and rolling the ball back along the ground to get back to a postion where he can unbind and grab the ball in one easy movement, in the traditional way. Is that an improvement? I am not sure. (edit -- I see didds has just had pretty much the same thought, in the post above. Great minds etc etc)
    The pick up is an exception to the handling in the scrum laws.

    Is the #8 likely to pick that side to break? I would have thought the free side will be his first port of call?

  10. #20

    Referees in Wales
    Taff's Avatar

    Soc/Assoc
    Llanelli District
    Grade
    WRU Level 2
    Join Date
    23 Aug 09
    Posts
    6,579
    Thanks (Received)
    27
    Likes (Received)
    246

    Default Re: When is the No8 fair game?

    Quote Originally Posted by crossref View Post
    I don't really understand what is the problem that this Law trial is meant to fix. I can see various problems it creates , as in the posts above, but have lost sight of what the benefits of the change are supposed to be ..
    Quote Originally Posted by ChuckieB View Post
    Speeds ball back into play as it gives an option that will end the scrum sooner.
    I think Chuckie's hit it on the head. Sadly, I reckon that scrums at elite level got so messy, that WR just looked at every possible suggestion to bring the scrums to an end as soon as possible.

    Personally, I reckon there wasn't anything wrong with the previous law - the problems cropped up because the law just wasn't being enforced.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •