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Thread: When is the No8 fair game?

      
  1. #21

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    Default Re: When is the No8 fair game?

    The #8 isn't breaking. he is picking up the ball. At that juncture the scrum is over. The flank may stand. The oppo scrumhalf wants to nail the #8, who may be still bound (but scrum over).

    That's the point/issue/concern. Not which way the #8 may or may not go. Because at the moment of picking up the ball and ending the scrum he ain't going anywhere.

    didds

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    Default Re: When is the No8 fair game?

    Quote Originally Posted by Taff View Post
    Personally, I reckon there wasn't anything wrong with the previous law - the problems cropped up because the law just wasn't being enforced.
    Can;t recall the details but ISTR Falatou scoring from the base of a scrum that had wheeled and got messy and he unbound and picked the ball out of the second row?

    didds
    Last edited by didds; 02-10-17 at 11:10.

  3. #23

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    Default Re: When is the No8 fair game?

    We were told that scrum was over when the no8 picked it up. I am not sure why it was put in as an exception to no handling in the scrum, rather than an extension of the permission for the hindmost player with the ball at his feet to break his binding and pick up the ball and that was scrum over.

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    Default Re: When is the No8 fair game?

    most of the time the #8 really wouldn't want to pick the ball out of the second row --- because it's hard to reach it, grab it, unbind and get away all very quickly, and without knocking on, or losing your balance.

    occasionally there will be some sort of weird scrum where it does work, perhaps a wheel, or loose binds or somethnig, #8s would do it.

    We would ref this once or twice a season wouldn't we? At most.
    Generally you'd let it go with a quick word after. Sometimes if it looked really wrong you'd penalise.

    But if someone had asked me three months ago to make fifty suggestions for the Law changes that would most help the game of rugby, I'd not have come up with that.

  5. #25

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    Default Re: When is the No8 fair game?

    Quote Originally Posted by didds View Post
    The #8 isn't breaking. he is picking up the ball. At that juncture the scrum is over. The flank may stand. The oppo scrumhalf wants to nail the #8, who may be still bound (but scrum over).

    That's the point/issue/concern. Not which way the #8 may or may not go. Because at the moment of picking up the ball and ending the scrum he ain't going anywhere.

    didds
    I might be not seeing the scenario clearly but I cannot see any difference between what happens (or should have happened) before. when the the No8 previously picked up the ball with one or two hands then the scrum was over. If the S/H was obstructed by the actions of the W/F it was (should be) a penalty. At the same time you would not reward a S/H for running (walking) into the W/F. If the W/F merely stands up and maintains his ground then the S/h has to go round.

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    Default Re: When is the No8 fair game?

    Quote Originally Posted by Balones View Post
    I might be not seeing the scenario clearly but I cannot see any difference between what happens (or should have happened) before. when the the No8 previously picked up the ball with one or two hands then the scrum was over. If the S/H was obstructed by the actions of the W/F it was (should be) a penalty. At the same time you would not reward a S/H for running (walking) into the W/F. If the W/F merely stands up and maintains his ground then the S/h has to go round.
    when a #8 picks up the ball at his feet, the unbinding and the picking up are pretty much simultaneous. (yes, yes, of course the unbinding is first, but the whole action is really quick)

    when a #8 reaches into the scrum, he's very likely going to use one hand, so he can keep his balance, so far from being simultaneous the picking up will come first, and the unbinding a clear second.

    we will have a short - but clear - space of time where he has picked up the ball, scrum is over, but he's still bound into it. it's possible that all four flankers will actually unbind (legally) before he does.

    I think it's a quite different scenario

  7. #27

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    Default Re: When is the No8 fair game?

    Quote Originally Posted by Balones View Post
    I might be not seeing the scenario clearly but I cannot see any difference between what happens (or should have happened) before. when the the No8 previously picked up the ball with one or two hands then the scrum was over. If the S/H was obstructed by the actions of the W/F it was (should be) a penalty. At the same time you would not reward a S/H for running (walking) into the W/F. If the W/F merely stands up and maintains his ground then the S/h has to go round.
    Before: ball had to be at the #8s feet. If he had one arm bound and picked up the ball with the free arm, that was handling in the scrum. If he unbound and reached into the seocnd row and grabbed the ball that was handling in the scrum.

    Now: #8 can apparently remain bound with one arm and pick up with the free arm. Now scrum over (though still bound). And/Or #8 can reach into the second row to pick up - play on, scrum over.

    The difference is a huge one - then it was PK, now its play on.

    didds

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    Default Re: When is the No8 fair game?

    Once you pick it up the scrum is over, whether you pick it up with one or two hands or if you are technically still bound. it doesn't matter if the ball is in the second row or under the No8's feet. I can see there being a slight delay if you are picking out of the second row but this shouldn't alter the decisions the referee has to make.

    P.S. I would not allow flapping back with the hand. That is handling in scrum. not allowed before - not allowed now.

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    Default Re: When is the No8 fair game?

    Quote Originally Posted by Balones View Post
    Once you pick it up the scrum is over, whether you pick it up with one or two hands or if you are technically still bound. it doesn't matter if the ball is in the second row or under the No8's feet. I can see there being a slight delay if you are picking out of the second row but this shouldn't alter the decisions the referee has to make.
    I think it makes it more likely that a decision is needed -- ie it will be harder for the #8 to get away cleanly, and if he doesn't the ref will have to work out if anything illegal happened (early unbind, obstructions, early tackle etc) ... and then either peep or play on.

    And the decsion possibly made without being able to easily see the precise moment the ball was picked up.

  10. #30

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    Default Re: When is the No8 fair game?

    The nuance now is that by being able to remain bound to pick the ball up (whether 2nd row or under feet) the break off will be slowed. that is time the oppo s/half can potentially tackle the #8.

    With a more standard approach the #8 could unbind and be away PROBABLY quicker than remaining bound etc - especially if the pick up one handed is from the 2nd row . That's the crux.

    didds

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