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Thread: Referee positioning - Try no Try?

      
  1. #1

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    Default Referee positioning - Try no Try?

    Watched a local L6 London South 1 Game yesterday and thought of my SADO Jim Firth whose died recently, a great man. Jim instilled in us that when there is a 5 metre line out (and no independent AR's) to position ourselves in 5 metre box so that play comes towards us.

    Situation - Blues attacking and have a 5 metre line out. Green steal line out and begin to maul to provide SH with ball to clear. (Referee position is on attacking side). Suddenly Blues No.6 dives over line and grounds ball.

    Referee calls captains together and advises that he didn't see ball grounded (because he was still stood on attacking side of line out) and awards a 5 metre scrum put in to Green. Spoke to club TJ afterwards what would you have given

    Please view this as a leaning point for referees with club Tj's. Thoughts, comments observations!?
    Last edited by Blindpugh; 05-11-17 at 19:11.

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    Default Re: Referee positioning - Try no Try?

    Hi blindpugh.
    In these situations i agree with jim .
    Position your self in 5 meter slot , no matter who throws in .
    Seems the ref did 2 things , that didnt work to well .

    1stly positioning caught him out .
    2ndly , unless its a typo ,,should of been blue put in at scrum restart .

    Even if ref , had stood correct side of line out & still for what ever reasons couldnt clearly see a grounding.
    Game would still start with attacking scrum .

  3. #3

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    Default Re: Referee positioning - Try no Try?

    Quote Originally Posted by Christy View Post
    Hi blindpugh.

    1stly positioning caught him out .
    2ndly , unless its a typo ,,should of been blue put in at scrum restart .

    Even if ref , had stood correct side of line out & still for what ever reasons couldnt clearly see a grounding.
    Game would still start with attacking scrum .
    Hi Christy - thankfully I followed Jim's advice so thankfully never encountered this situation.

    Club TJ who is a Society referee said it was a clear try but referee was in the wrong position to see it.

    We agreed if we hadn't seen grounding we would have given scrum to attacking side Blue. Well spotted!

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    Default Re: Referee positioning - Try no Try?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blindpugh View Post
    referee was in the wrong position to see it.
    I wonder, then, what the referee did and did not see. Did he see Blue #6 dive over the line but just missed the grounding or did he not see Blue #6 at all?

    And I can't picture any valid reason why Green would get the scrum feed. If the ref only saw Green win the lineout and maul formed, it should be turnover scrum to Blue. And if even that was a blur, Blue appears to be going forward, so scrum to Blue, or if held up over line, scrum to Blue.
    I, for one, like Roman numerals

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    Default Re: Referee positioning - Try no Try?

    In a similar situation I try to use all available information, rather than just relying on my own one set of eyes: what was the reaction of both teams? Did I see a situation in which only one person could have grounded the ball, or is there really doubt as to what happened? Whose TJ was it? If he/she had been scrupously accurate throughout the match, what did they see? I know what 6.A.7 allows, but we 'consult' TJs on touch decisions (where did the ball actually land? where was his foot?), so I am happy to use them as further, generally confirmatory, information if they have shown themselves to be reliable.

    But if you really cannot be sure that the ball has been grounded, or by which side, then you just have to go with a scrum, attacker's ball. It can only be a defender's ball if the attacking side has knocked-on into or in the In-Goal (or is accidentally offside).

    Moral of the story: (1) always know where the ball is in a maul. (2) within 5m, on or behind the GL is invariably the better position.
    Be reasonable - do it my way.

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    Default Re: Referee positioning - Try no Try?

    To ad to all that. Let's consider what happened after the ball was won by the non throwing-in side.

    Why did the referee not get back around to the ball winning teams side. If the line out had been 30 m out and Black were throwing in you'd be on black's side (OTBE). However, if white catch the ball you are likely to go around to white's side of the LO (maul) to see offside lines knock ons by White 9 etc etc.

    So all in all a bit of a mess.

  7. #7

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    Default Re: Referee positioning - Try no Try?

    Sounds like he had not paid attention to the first tenet of set play - locate the ball!

    I would suggest that as soon as the line out was stolen by Green he should have worked to change his position to one that took him to Green's side of the line and stood in such a place as to observe all that was likely to unfold. By what you describe he had ample opportunity so to do.

    As to the Club TJ, if it is one I know and trust I may be inclined to have a little look at them to gauge their reaction. I should point out here that I would need to have knowledge of both TJs to make this a justifiable action.

    By the sounds of it the referee made a 'critical error' of judgement if he expected Green to Maul the ball out and give the #9 space to box kick and effect the exit strategy.

    I can see how he may have sold the 5m scrum for Green on the basis that the Blue player lost the ball forward and took it into the In_Goal area before it was made dead. However, the question is raised as to whether Blue 6 was on-side before he played the ball.

    Bit of a fluster cuck if you ask me.
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    Default Re: Referee positioning - Try no Try?

    Quote Originally Posted by beckett50 View Post

    I should point out here that I would need to have knowledge of both TJs to make this a justifiable action.
    Why is that?
    I, for one, like Roman numerals

  9. #9

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    Default Re: Referee positioning - Try no Try?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dickie E View Post
    Why is that?
    Because to not so do would lead one to question the other's impartiality. At the end of the day they are not 'appointed' ARs but TJs - with all that that entails with regard to LotG.

    Hope that explains it DickieE
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  10. #10

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    Default Re: Referee positioning - Try no Try?

    Quote Originally Posted by beckett50 View Post
    Because to not so do would lead one to question the other's impartiality. At the end of the day they are not 'appointed' ARs but TJs - with all that that entails with regard to LotG.

    Hope that explains it DickieE
    Not really.

    If you have confidence in the TJ on the side that the event occurs, why does it matter about the other TJ?
    I, for one, like Roman numerals

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