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Thread: Sonny Bill Williams/Sinny Bin Williams

      
  1. #31
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    Default Re: Sonny Bill Williams/Sinny Bin Williams

    In writng? I don't know. In society meetings we are reminded all the time. It makes no sense to do anything else. THe player CHOSES to infringe. Why give him a second, hypothetical, chance to do it right?

    So in this example:

    SBW contravenes 10.2(c) so we are now in to "is it a PT?" treritory. So: What would happen if he did not comit foul play?
    Well


    1: He might have caught it - Happy days for SBW!

    2: He might have failed to catch it (dropped) and the French player might have gathered it and scored.

    3: He might have failed to catch it (dropped) and the French player might have gathered it and not scored.

    4: He might have missed it and the French player might have gathered it and scored.

    5: He might have missed it and the French player might have gathered it and scored.

    If you apply "beam me up" (the logical option) Them options oneto three are not relevant. If you don't, ask yourself: "Why did SBW choses not to try to catch the ball?"

    Options four and five could apply whether or not you apply "beam me up". They are the logical options to consider. I see no reason for allowing player to chose to offend and then saying well he might have caught the ball so lets give him the benefit of the doubt.

    THe same applied to Liam Williams (Wales V RSA) a couple of years ago. Wales were 5 poiint up and we were at the death of the game. RSA were looking to score in the corner - if they scored they had a difficult kick to win but at least a draw. Williams put in an illegal challenge and the ref went under the posts (Wales lost by 2) If the ref had not applied the "beam me up" principle then a reasonalbe claim would be "if LW had tackled fairly the try could have been prevented (enough to say not a "probable try") so the ref only awards a Penalty. That would been a gross injustice. After all IF LW had attempted to tackle fairly the worse case scenario would have been a conversion attempt from the touchline to for RSA to win the game. In the actual game LW was a fool he got the card he deserved and the RSA got the win following a low pressure conversion.

    SO I'm applying a consistant logic to a NZ offence as to a Wales offence so clearly no bias. Ian_Cook is a NZ'der who is also applying the same interpretation that referees all aver the world apply. There is your evidence of the protocol.

    Ask at your next society meeting for their guidence.

  2. #32

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    Default Re: Sonny Bill Williams/Sinny Bin Williams

    Quote Originally Posted by Pegleg View Post
    In writng? I don't know. In society meetings we are reminded all the time. It makes no sense to do anything else. THe player CHOSES to infringe. Why give him a second, hypothetical, chance to do it right?

    So in this example:

    SBW contravenes 10.2(c) so we are now in to "is it a PT?" treritory. So: What would happen if he did not comit foul play?
    Well


    1: He might have caught it - Happy days for SBW!

    2: He might have failed to catch it (dropped) and the French player might have gathered it and scored.

    3: He might have failed to catch it (dropped) and the French player might have gathered it and not scored.

    4: He might have missed it and the French player might have gathered it and scored.

    5: He might have missed it and the French player might have gathered it and scored.

    If you apply "beam me up" (the logical option) Them options oneto three are not relevant. If you don't, ask yourself: "Why did SBW choses not to try to catch the ball?"

    Options four and five could apply whether or not you apply "beam me up". They are the logical options to consider. I see no reason for allowing player to chose to offend and then saying well he might have caught the ball so lets give him the benefit of the doubt.

    THe same applied to Liam Williams (Wales V RSA) a couple of years ago. Wales were 5 poiint up and we were at the death of the game. RSA were looking to score in the corner - if they scored they had a difficult kick to win but at least a draw. Williams put in an illegal challenge and the ref went under the posts (Wales lost by 2) If the ref had not applied the "beam me up" principle then a reasonalbe claim would be "if LW had tackled fairly the try could have been prevented (enough to say not a "probable try") so the ref only awards a Penalty. That would been a gross injustice. After all IF LW had attempted to tackle fairly the worse case scenario would have been a conversion attempt from the touchline to for RSA to win the game. In the actual game LW was a fool he got the card he deserved and the RSA got the win following a low pressure conversion.

    SO I'm applying a consistant logic to a NZ offence as to a Wales offence so clearly no bias. Ian_Cook is a NZ'der who is also applying the same interpretation that referees all aver the world apply. There is your evidence of the protocol.

    Ask at your next society meeting for their guidence.
    I agree with this excellent post.

    I don't even think we need to apply a beam me up principle - you just need to ask what would have probably happened in SBW hadn't knocked the ball into touch. For me, the Frenchman would probably have caught the ball and fallen in the in-goal for a try. It makes no sense to ask what SBW could have done legally if he had his time over again. All this "Beam me up" stuff is clouding the issue.

    Ian and I are both very confident with the decision. As we are the two most vocal Kiwis on here this should give pause for thought.
    "There is far too much talk about good ball and bad ball. In my opinion, good ball is when you have possession and bad ball is when the opposition have it." - Dick Jeeps

  3. #33

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    Default Re: Sonny Bill Williams/Sinny Bin Williams

    Quote Originally Posted by Pegleg View Post
    In writng? I don't know. In society meetings we are reminded all the time. It makes no sense to do anything else. THe player CHOSES to infringe. Why give him a second, hypothetical, chance to do it right?

    So in this example:

    SBW contravenes 10.2(c) so we are now in to "is it a PT?" treritory. So: What would happen if he did not comit foul play?
    Well


    1: He might have caught it - Happy days for SBW!

    2: He might have failed to catch it (dropped) and the French player might have gathered it and scored.

    3: He might have failed to catch it (dropped) and the French player might have gathered it and not scored.

    4: He might have missed it and the French player might have gathered it and scored.

    5: He might have missed it and the French player might have gathered it and scored.

    If you apply "beam me up" (the logical option) Them options oneto three are not relevant. If you don't, ask yourself: "Why did SBW choses not to try to catch the ball?"

    Options four and five could apply whether or not you apply "beam me up". They are the logical options to consider. I see no reason for allowing player to chose to offend and then saying well he might have caught the ball so lets give him the benefit of the doubt.

    THe same applied to Liam Williams (Wales V RSA) a couple of years ago. Wales were 5 poiint up and we were at the death of the game. RSA were looking to score in the corner - if they scored they had a difficult kick to win but at least a draw. Williams put in an illegal challenge and the ref went under the posts (Wales lost by 2) If the ref had not applied the "beam me up" principle then a reasonalbe claim would be "if LW had tackled fairly the try could have been prevented (enough to say not a "probable try") so the ref only awards a Penalty. That would been a gross injustice. After all IF LW had attempted to tackle fairly the worse case scenario would have been a conversion attempt from the touchline to for RSA to win the game. In the actual game LW was a fool he got the card he deserved and the RSA got the win following a low pressure conversion.

    SO I'm applying a consistant logic to a NZ offence as to a Wales offence so clearly no bias. Ian_Cook is a NZ'der who is also applying the same interpretation that referees all aver the world apply. There is your evidence of the protocol.

    Ask at your next society meeting for their guidence.
    "Never underestimate the power of the Internet to lend unwarranted credibility to the colossally misinformed"
    - Jay "Utah" Windley

  4. #34

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    Default Re: Sonny Bill Williams/Sinny Bin Williams

    Quote Originally Posted by Pegleg View Post


    A secondary question. Why did the player feel the need to knock it dead rather than take the legal option?
    Because he is an ex leaguie and under pressure his instincts kicked in.

    He should cop some grief from his team mates over this. I imagine the AB's don't do court sessions any more (and SBW doesn't drink anyway), but geeze in my day he would have had a hard time of it the next morning.
    "There is far too much talk about good ball and bad ball. In my opinion, good ball is when you have possession and bad ball is when the opposition have it." - Dick Jeeps

  5. #35

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    Default Re: Sonny Bill Williams/Sinny Bin Williams

    Quote Originally Posted by damo View Post
    It makes no sense to ask what SBW could have done legally if he had his time over again. All this "Beam me up" stuff is clouding the issue.
    The "Beam Me Up" principle is simply a vehicle for making it clear that anything else the infringing player might have done is irrelevant, what he actually CHOSE to do is at hand, and is the only thing that does matter.

    Quote Originally Posted by damo View Post
    Ian and I are both very confident with the decision. As we are the two most vocal Kiwis on here this should give pause for thought.
    Yes
    "Never underestimate the power of the Internet to lend unwarranted credibility to the colossally misinformed"
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  6. #36

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    Default Re: Sonny Bill Williams/Sinny Bin Williams

    Quote Originally Posted by damo View Post
    Because he is an ex leaguie and under pressure his instincts kicked in.

    He should cop some grief from his team mates over this. I imagine the AB's don't do court sessions any more (and SBW doesn't drink anyway), but geeze in my day he would have had a hard time of it the next morning.
    At HSOB in Christchurch, we used to have a wooden toilet seat. It was the "Dick of the Day' award, and if you were named, you had to wear it around your neck at the after match. It had words on something like..."I may not know why I am wearing this, but you can be damned sure the other 14 guys do!"
    "Never underestimate the power of the Internet to lend unwarranted credibility to the colossally misinformed"
    - Jay "Utah" Windley

  7. #37
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    Default Re: Sonny Bill Williams/Sinny Bin Williams

    Beam me up. Is that, pretend he wasn't there?

    That he infringed is not under question.

    That he he is there Is what makes it a difficult call under the circumstances. It would be an easier one if there was more visibility on the decision making protocol, something not confined to the back rooms of society meetings and referees forums.

    if you compare against the application of the high tackle protocols, it might be better to scribe in the laws that if the player should have reasonably known that his action might prevent a try then it might serve as a clearer warning and perhaps a better deterrent.

    I would find that much easier to stand behind.

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    Default Re: Sonny Bill Williams/Sinny Bin Williams

    I find it hard to imagine that NZ players on the pitch were disappointed with decision. If it had a been a game I was reffing it seems like an incident that might might well prompt some discussion in the bar afterwards, because it was unusual, but on pitch I think the players would have accepted a PT quite easily, and with a PT it's always a card
    Last edited by crossref; 13-11-17 at 12:11.

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    Default Re: Sonny Bill Williams/Sinny Bin Williams

    Quote Originally Posted by Dixpat View Post
    Any thoughts on him allowing the French to retake a penalty after they I suspect “inadvertently” tapped the ball directly behind the mark on which he stood and the ABs came forward and made the tackle - his decision was on the basis “he hadn’t moved off the mark”
    that is intriguing - anyone know what time in the game that happened? I'd like to see the video..

    my instinct is that you can't take a PK inadvertently. for instance if the ball happens to be on the ground behind the mark and player walks into it and moves it with his foot, that doesn't count as taking the PK
    Last edited by crossref; 13-11-17 at 15:11.

  10. #40

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    Default Re: Sonny Bill Williams/Sinny Bin Williams

    If you don't accept the break me up about approach, ten you have to accept that you are giving a cheat a second chance.

    There are mo other options.

    Meanwhile I don't buy this SBW ex leaguie natural reactionstuff. He didn't swap codes last week, has significant RU experience and is a highly paid professional. Its his JOB yo understand his JOB.

    Didds

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