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Thread: Ball at 8's feet. His bind changes into only hands-on. What should you do ?

      
  1. #11
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    Default Re: Ball at 8's feet. His bind changes into only hands-on. What should you do ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris_j View Post
    If the 8 is not bound and the ball is at his feet before the scrum reaches the line then scrum is over, the ball is out and forwards are offside if they interfere in play. So if they continue to plough a path to the goal line the best call would be accidental offside, scrum 5 defending team. Penalty against attackers seems OTT to me.
    Yes. That's plausible but would you shout something like "Unbound. Use It.!" or " Ball is out!" to help the players understand what's happening.
    In my case, it was only after I replayed the image in my mind about what I;d seen, I was clear that No.8 had dribbled the ball about 6 metres with only his fingers pinching onto a bit if his team-mate's shirts.
    I suspect, given his team were so dominant in the scrum anyway, that they would have scored a try if the minimum bind had been maintained throughout.
    I am not sure, however, what I would have done if the oppo's flanker had run round and dived on the ball.
    Cheers for advice , everyone !

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    Default Re: Ball at 8's feet. His bind changes into only hands-on. What should you do ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris_j View Post
    If the 8 is not bound and the ball is at his feet before the scrum reaches the line then scrum is over, the ball is out and forwards are offside if they interfere in play. So if they continue to plough a path to the goal line the best call would be accidental offside, scrum 5 defending team. Penalty against attackers seems OTT to me.
    I think this sounds like a good way of dealing with it - if you shout "Unbound eight - use it!" and they continue to drive forward, then at least you've warned them.

    Agree PK may be too harsh - forwards in front of him have no idea that he's unbound. So accidental offside the right call - just as if they attempt to maul at a lineout when the opposition have not engaged.

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    Default Re: Ball at 8's feet. His bind changes into only hands-on. What should you do ?

    Blue captain : "[Sir] if, should the 8 not have a proper bind in that situation again, is the scrum over and [am I] ok to come round and tackle him? "
    Me :"Yes"
    Me : "White 8 - as soon as you move to hands only grip you are deemed to be unbound, hence the ball is out of the scrum at that time. Do you understand?"

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    Default Re: Ball at 8's feet. His bind changes into only hands-on. What should you do ?

    Then what do you do when the next scrum as it starts to go forward

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    Default Re: Ball at 8's feet. His bind changes into only hands-on. What should you do ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Camquin View Post
    Then what do you do when the next scrum as it starts to go forward
    Nothing.

    If white 8 unbound I would fully expect Blue 9 to go for the ball and White 8 to react (or not - if he answered my question to him incorrectly ;-)

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    Default Re: Ball at 8's feet. His bind changes into only hands-on. What should you do ?

    Quote Originally Posted by crossref View Post
    ..how material was it
    Quote Originally Posted by CrouchTPEngage View Post
    Very material. I awarded a try. Lesson learned.
    I suppose they probably would have scored a push over try anyway if he had maintained just his 1 arm bind. So ,in that sense, it may not have affected the outcome.
    Quote Originally Posted by didds View Post
    According to the OP he scored from it so I'd say MAJORLY material
    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisR View Post
    Ouch! Tricky one for you. Don't lose any sleep over awarding the try as a. your focus is on Blue and b. it sounds like the try was going to be scored anyway.
    IMO This depends on what you regard as "material"

    I agree with CTPE and ChrisR to a certain extent.

    Had the No 8 maintained at least a one arm bind, would the try have been scored anyway? Very likely, therefore, not material.

    Did the fact that he had both arms unbound give him any advantage that would not have had with at least one arm bound? Unlikely IMO, so not material.

    But here is an interesting point. Had CTPE spotted the unbound No. 8 and called "use it", then No 8 has 5 seconds. If the Red scrum keeps driving forward, and the try is scored before that 5 seconds elapses, does that count as "use it"!

    And there is another little "Glitch on the Matrix"

    20.10 ENDING THE SCRUM
    (d) When a team has the ball at the number 8’s feet, and is trying to move forward but is not
    succeeding in doing so
    , the referee will call “use-it” once the ball has been at the number 8’s
    feet for a reasonable amount of time (3-5 seconds). The team must then use the ball
    immediately.

    So, if the scrum is moving forward, the "use it" scenario does not apply, in which case, you go back to...

    20.10 ENDING THE SCRUM
    (c) Hindmost player unbinds. The hindmost player in a scrum is the player whose feet are
    nearest the team’s own goal line. If the hindmost player unbinds from the scrum with the
    ball at that player’s feet and picks up the ball , the scrum ends.

    ... except that, the scrum does not end until the No. 8 picks up the ball, therefore, IMO, the correct call is...

    20.1 FORMING A SCRUM
    (e) Number of players: eight. A scrum must have eight players from each team. All eight
    players must stay bound to the scrum until it ends. Each front row must have three players
    in it , no more and no less. Two locks must form the second row.

    A PK against Red 8 for unbinding before the scrum ends, in just the same way that you should PK a flanker who is unbound and holding on by only his hand.
    Last edited by Ian_Cook; 27-12-17 at 20:12.
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    Default Re: Ball at 8's feet. His bind changes into only hands-on. What should you do ?

    But how does the 9 know when you consider the eight to have unbound - are you happy to have him ask (repeatedly)?

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    Default Re: Ball at 8's feet. His bind changes into only hands-on. What should you do ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Camquin View Post
    But how does the 9 know when you consider the eight to have unbound - are you happy to have him ask (repeatedly)?
    If Blue asks in the original discussion, then I will give him my opinion, which I would make sure I shared with the attacking 8. It is no different from many other parts of the game - judgement.

    No, not happy to have him ask repeatedly. Much like, I might reply once to "is that ball out of the ruck, sir?", but if this question is repetitious then I will not reply and ask the questioner's captain to stop his team's chirping.

    Unlike the ruck situation which can by very dynamic and changeable, the 8's that I have seen change their bind only do this once.

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