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Thread: Maul - Ball Carrier going to ground = tackle?

      
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    Default Maul - Ball Carrier going to ground = tackle?

    Caveat - I'm pretty new to reffing.

    A game this weekend - Red BC gets smother tackled and a maul sets up, with 3 or 4 players from each side. BC is in contact with Blue player who is trying to rip. BC goes to ground and the ball touches the floor. Blue player starts to jackel, and claims that the maul has now become a tackle and he is permitted to challenge.

    My call was that a ruck has ensued, and that this is hands in. PK to Red.

    I've been looking for a straight answer, but can't quite get clarity in the threads I have been reading.

    Question: Is this a ruck? Do the ruck laws apply? Or do we really have a tackle occurring in the middle of a maul?

    Thanks.

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    Rugby Club Member Rich_NL's Avatar

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    Default Re: Maul - Ball Carrier going to ground = tackle?

    Welcome!

    It's often a confusing situation around mauls, but you were quite correct - it was not a tackle. Law 15.2 says that explicitly.

    Once a maul has started, providing you don't blow for a penalty, there's either a successful end to the maul (ball comes out, ball crosses the tryline, or ball goes to the ground), or an unsuccessful end and a scrum ensues.

    The ball went to the ground in this case, with players closed over the ball. Sounds like ruck formed to me.

    Edit: It's always good to call the situation clearly, so that players know what their rights are in the situation. "Maul!" when you judge the maul to have started, "ruck!" when it becomes such, and "leave it!" in case they're still confused
    Last edited by Rich_NL; 1 Week Ago at 11:12.

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    Default Re: Maul - Ball Carrier going to ground = tackle?

    wrt ruck...I got the distinct impression from these firums that a ball going to ground in a maul was still a maul and the ball needed to be played quickly - or its turnover?

    didds

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    Default Re: Maul - Ball Carrier going to ground = tackle?

    Quote Originally Posted by didds View Post
    wrt ruck...I got the distinct impression from these firums that a ball going to ground in a maul was still a maul and the ball needed to be played quickly - or its turnover?

    didds
    I think this. ^^^

    In all honesty I don't want a load of people on the floor and some on their feet competing for a ball I can't see.

    *Peep. "Failed maul. Turnover" and this...

    16_2016_thumb.jpg

    *assuming it's not from a kick and all the related stuff and nonsense that goes with that.

    Strange. Sorry just noticed it's your first post - welcome.
    Last edited by Lee Lifeson-Peart; 1 Week Ago at 13:12.
    And a crack on the head is what you get for asking... - Morrissey & Marr 1985

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    Rugby Club Member Rich_NL's Avatar

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    Default Re: Maul - Ball Carrier going to ground = tackle?

    Most refs will look for either the ball out or a scrum. But it's not wrong to play it as a ruck, if it's safe and clear that that's what is going on.

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    Default Re: Maul - Ball Carrier going to ground = tackle?

    Quote Originally Posted by didds View Post
    wrt ruck...I got the distinct impression from these firums that a ball going to ground in a maul was still a maul and the ball needed to be played quickly - or its turnover?
    I don't see why. If the ball has got to the floor, then by definition it's a ruck. I've seen some players who think they've created a ruck if they have gone to ground, but the ball is off the ground. That is just a collapsed maul, and we deal with it accordingly.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Lifeson-Peart View Post
    ... In all honesty I don't want a load of people on the floor and some on their feet competing for a ball I can't see.
    Then just treat it as an unsuccessful end to a ruck (if the ball is on the floor) ... which is what it is.
    Last edited by Taff; 1 Week Ago at 13:12.

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    Default Re: Maul - Ball Carrier going to ground = tackle?

    Strange, welcome. As said above this can be confusing. A maul definitely cannot become a tackle, so you were correct about that. It is possible for a maul to become a ruck if the ball is on the ground, but I would suggest that should be the view only if nearly everyone is still on their feet, so as LLP suggests, it is probably simpler to consider if the ball on the ground is available for play - and not include rucking as play in your thinking, and if not then blow for unsuccessful end to the maul with turnover.

    When a maul collapses, or where the ball carrier goes to ground there is no need for others to let go and allow the BC to play the ball, the exception being when the ball is on the ground, and then nobody should be handling it - including the original ball carrier.
    Last edited by Pinky; 1 Week Ago at 13:12.

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    Default Re: Maul - Ball Carrier going to ground = tackle?

    hi strange
    welcome to the dark side .

    its always good to shout maul { when it is a maul }
    remember the bc , is legally allowed to drop to floor if he wishes . { but he now has to use it immediately 5 secs }
    a maul can not become a tackle .
    a maul can become a ruck & policed as a ruck { as in hind foot off side lines } .... however players who are now on floor with collapsed maul dont have to get up ,,or get off of ball if they are smothering same }.
    the opposition players & all other players who are on floor cant make a play for ball . { the bc scrum half can come & pick up ball , if its coming let it come }.

    the opposition player or opposition scrum half who are on their feet cant as they wouldnt be bound in a ruck .
    and they cant stand over a collapsed ruck / maul

    now , this is where the ref needs to manage the situation .
    try shouting use it now , as soon as bc gets a knee or ball to floor , count to 5 in your head .
    opposition dont have to release him either
    if it doesnt come , blow & award scrum .

    if opposition players try to make a play for ball , when ball is on floor , tell them something like .
    no hands now blue or leave it blue .
    Last edited by Christy; 1 Week Ago at 13:12.

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    Player or Coach ChrisR's Avatar

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    Default Re: Maul - Ball Carrier going to ground = tackle?

    Welcome to the forum, Savage, and you got the call right given that: The BC released the ball on the ground to make it "available" so that the maul became a ruck.

    The following two laws apply to this situation:

    17.2 (d) Keeping players on their feet. Players in a maul must endeavor to stay on their feet. The ball carrier in a maul may go to ground providing the ball is available immediately and play continues.
    Sanction: Penalty kick

    17.6 (g) If the ball carrier in a maul goes to ground, including being on one or both knees or sitting, the referee orders a scrum unless the ball is immediately available.

    When the ball is available to be played the referee will call “Use it!” after which the ball must be played within five seconds. If the ball is not played within five seconds the referee will
    award a scrum and the team not in possession of the ball is awarded the throw-in.


    . . . . and from Pinky above: When a maul collapses, or where the ball carrier goes to ground there is no need for others to let go and allow the BC to play the ball, the exception being when the ball is on the ground, and then nobody should be handling it - including the original ball carrier.

    The parts in red are the key. If the BC goes to ground but cannot/does not release the ball to the ground (held by the ops) immediately then a scrum is ordered with the ops feed.

    If the BC goes to ground and releases the ball the maul has become a ruck but the referee is instructed to call "Use it!" and the ball must be played away within 5 seconds.

    Hope this helps.

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    Player or Coach ChrisR's Avatar

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    Default Re: Maul - Ball Carrier going to ground = tackle?

    Couple more things to consider:

    If a player other than the BC deliberately goes to ground in a maul it is a PK even if the maul doesn't collapse.

    If the BC goes to ground but releases the ball to a teammate who is on their feet the maul can't continue, the ball must be played away immediately or it's a scrum to ops.

    If the BC goes to ground and the ops strip him of the ball then they must play it away immediately (the maul can't continue) but they get the scrum if they don't.

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