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Thread: Consistent advantage

      
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    Default Consistent advantage

    The advantage after time expired thread had several people replying saying that advantage should always be played the same way, which surprised me a bit.

    Other than the situation in the mentioned thread, a few where I'd play advantage 'differently' are:

    * Slow ruck ball won by the non infringing team in their own 22 versus their opponents' 22

    * A team getting hammered in the scrum versus one doing the hammering

    * A team trying to run the clock down versus one trying to score the winning points.

    Just wondering how many others would treat these situations differently and how many would say they should always be treated the same way.

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    Default Re: Consistent advantage

    Quote Originally Posted by DocY View Post
    The advantage after time expired thread had several people replying saying that advantage should always be played the same way, which surprised me a bit.

    Other than the situation in the mentioned thread, a few where I'd play advantage 'differently' are:

    * Slow ruck ball won by the non infringing team in their own 22 versus their opponents' 22

    * A team getting hammered in the scrum versus one doing the hammering

    * A team trying to run the clock down versus one trying to score the winning points.

    Just wondering how many others would treat these situations differently and how many would say they should always be treated the same way.
    That's not quite what people were saying.

    Looking at your 3 scenario, they are n't the same things and so the comparisons aren't valid.

    A better way of looking at it is:
    Do I treat slow ball in the opposition 22 the same way (assuming all other factors are consistent)?
    Do I treat slow ball in their own 22m the same way...

    Ball in your own 22 compared to the opposition 22 is a very different proposition and of course would be handled differently.
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    Default Re: Consistent advantage

    I think DocY example are good

    To take one, if a team goes through a couple of phases without getting near to the gain line , it's normally going to be 'no advantage'
    But if there are twenty seconds to go and they are simply winding down the clock they'd likely prefer to keep going ... So they may prefer adv over to no advantage

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    Default Re: Consistent advantage

    I completely agree on advantage being different in different areas of the pitch. And indeed you may apply different advantages knock-ons for a team getting hammered at the scrum to the team that is dominant. But it still wouldn't be wildly different for me - maybe a few extra phases for one team for example. And I would aim to be consistent for that team's situation.

    Quote Originally Posted by crossref View Post
    But if there are twenty seconds to go and they are simply winding down the clock they'd likely prefer to keep going ... So they may prefer adv over to no advantage
    I am still of the opinion that you benefit the players best by applying some form of consistent advantage (across similar situations, as Simon points out) so the teams can react to that, rather than you trying to second guess what they want. Indeed, crossref, I believe you advocate a captain/SH telling a ref "we'll take the penalty" when playing advantage for example*, so that is an example of putting things into the players' hands rather than second guessing them. I maintain trying to change advantage according to match result is difficult because you may not know** the nuances of how many points/tries/points differences etc a team actually needs/wants from a certain game.

    * forgive me if this is not your view
    **(to be fair, a lot of players on the pitch may not either)

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    Default Re: Consistent advantage

    Quote Originally Posted by crossref View Post
    I think DocY example are good

    To take one, if a team goes through a couple of phases without getting near to the gain line , it's normally going to be 'no advantage'
    But if there are twenty seconds to go and they are simply winding down the clock they'd likely prefer to keep going ... So they may prefer adv over to no advantage
    I think this exemplifies the danger in your thought process regarding advantage. If I'm playing, and have a scrum advantage with the clock winding down, I want the scrum. The scrum will take up the rest of the time on the clock, slightly squint feed, ensuring we win the scrum (what ref is going to make that call at that time), pass to FH kick the ball off the pitch, game over.

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    Default Re: Consistent advantage

    Quote Originally Posted by thepercy View Post
    I think this exemplifies the danger in your thought process regarding advantage. If I'm playing, and have a scrum advantage with the clock winding down, I want the scrum. The scrum will take up the rest of the time on the clock, slightly squint feed, ensuring we win the scrum (what ref is going to make that call at that time), pass to FH kick the ball off the pitch, game over.
    This is actually closer to what I was thinking. It's easier to manage this way, though (as opposed to a short advantage) - they can always ask for the scrum.

    I thought it raised an interesting problem, though. What is advantage in this case? The time it takes for the scrum, plus a good chance of possession.

    So what do you do if they've held on to possession for, say, half of this time before the call of no advantage? Now they get a scrum and a half's worth of time elapsed and the same chance of possession. Is this fair? Maybe I'm over thinking it.

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    Default Re: Consistent advantage

    Of course a team that would prefer a scrum can just stop playing and the scrum will be awarded
    Conversely a team that keeps playing presumably doesn't want the scrum

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    Default Re: Consistent advantage

    Quote Originally Posted by thepercy View Post
    I think this exemplifies the danger in your thought process regarding advantage. If I'm playing, and have a scrum advantage with the clock winding down, I want the scrum. The scrum will take up the rest of the time on the clock, slightly squint feed, ensuring we win the scrum (what ref is going to make that call at that time), pass to FH kick the ball off the pitch, game over.
    Agreed. Too many refs think they know what the players want. Some of us are better at it than others but as a whole we rarely do.

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    Default Re: Consistent advantage

    And what of the Captain that says "Happy with that Ref!"?

    Just to throw a curve ball
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    Default Re: Consistent advantage

    If there's to consistency is how advantage is applied (essentially when/how it's over) then there needs to be some guidance from the top. Is there any?

    Two factors that should not apply is a. team competency in any particular aspect of the game and b. the score.
    Last edited by ChrisR; 20-12-17 at 12:12.

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