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Thread: Where the 2018 Law Book is actually different from 2017

      
  1. #21

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    Default Re: Where the 2018 Law Book is actually different from 2017

    Quote Originally Posted by crossref View Post
    Yes. Hmm
    What's still clearly the same is the indication of where the scrum takes place.

    What's changed - or missing - is the instruction NOT to give a dropout when the ball is knocked on over the goal line and then touched down.

    Is that an important Law , does that make a difference ? It's certainly a Law that is often cited here , and also a Law that covers a pretty common circumstance .

    For me , if there is knock on over the goal line into the in goal and touched down, then to justify a decision of scrum (rather than a 22m) you would need the 2017 Law Book
    This has been debated at length in the past but I have not participated because there is no point. When the attacking side knock on in goal then it is a scrum 5M. That is the way it is (or should be) refereed. If anyone disagrees then take it up with WR. Nothing else will change this situation.

    When asked about an explanation I simply say that at a knock on by the attacking side in goal there is an opportunity to play an advantage and allow the defending side to play the ball. If the defending doesn’t want to play the ball and touch down instead, then they have made the ball dead. Just as if in open play they make the ball dead in effect by either not doing anything and waiting for the ref to blow his whistle or even knocking on themselves. I have always said that it is within the remit of the referee to decide if he/she can offer an advantage but he/she cannot make a side accept an advantage. Once the opposition decide to try to take an advantage (play with the ball/possession) then it is up to the referee to decide if this has been achieved. Touching down in goal is declining to play with the ball. Therefore scrum for the knock on. Where? – 5M – the only place possible.

  2. #22
    Player or Coach ChrisR's Avatar

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    Default Re: Where the 2018 Law Book is actually different from 2017

    This is the same old discussion but crossrefs point of playing advantage (and awarding a 22 DO in certain circumstances) now has more merit as specific instructions have been removed from both knock-on law and in-goal law.

    Therefore we should address a knock-on in or into goal in a consistent way throughout the playing area and other applicable laws.

    1. Attacking player knock-on occurs in or into goal. Play advantage.

    2. Attacking player (or teammate) grounds the ball, 5m scrum to defenders.

    3. Defending player picks up the ball and continues play. If advantage gained then play on. If no advantage 5m scrum to defenders.

    4. Defending player grounds the ball. 22 drop out as stated in Law 12.11:
    11. Apart from at a kick-off or restart kick, if the ball is played or taken into in-goal by an
    attacking player and is made dead by an opponent, play is restarted with a 22-metre
    drop-out.


    5. The ball goes into dead ball or touch-in-goal. 22 DO as ball is played into goal and goes dead. Actually I'd offer the defending team the choice of 22 DO or 5m scrum.

  3. #23

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    Default Re: Where the 2018 Law Book is actually different from 2017

    After a knock on its commonplace for the other team to kick for touch, or kick it out to end the game.

    If the defenders knock on in goal we'd all let the attackers touch it down for a try.

  4. #24

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    Default Re: Where the 2018 Law Book is actually different from 2017

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisR View Post
    This is the same old discussion but crossrefs point of playing advantage (and awarding a 22 DO in certain circumstances) now has more merit as specific instructions have been removed from both knock-on law and in-goal law.

    Therefore we should address a knock-on in or into goal in a consistent way throughout the playing area and other applicable laws.

    1. Attacking player knock-on occurs in or into goal. Play advantage.

    2. Attacking player (or teammate) grounds the ball, 5m scrum to defenders.

    3. Defending player picks up the ball and continues play. If advantage gained then play on. If no advantage 5m scrum to defenders.

    4. Defending player grounds the ball. 22 drop out as stated in Law 12.11:
    11. Apart from at a kick-off or restart kick, if the ball is played or taken into in-goal by an
    attacking player and is made dead by an opponent, play is restarted with a 22-metre
    drop-out.


    5. The ball goes into dead ball or touch-in-goal. 22 DO as ball is played into goal and goes dead. Actually I'd offer the defending team the choice of 22 DO or 5m scrum.
    What we have to remember is that at a knock on by the attacking side this creates a dead ball because it is an offence. The action of the defending side of making the ball dead in some way is the second action of making the ball dead. Under such circumstances the ref applies the first. Therefore 5M scrum.

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    Default Re: Where the 2018 Law Book is actually different from 2017

    So Red knock on, blue gather, run forward 22m and then into touch. What do you give?

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    Default Re: Where the 2018 Law Book is actually different from 2017

    Quote Originally Posted by Balones View Post
    What we have to remember is that at a knock on by the attacking side this creates a dead ball because it is an offence. The action of the defending side of making the ball dead in some way is the second action of making the ball dead. Under such circumstances the ref applies the first. Therefore 5M scrum.
    2018 Law reference please ?

  7. #27
    Player or Coach ChrisR's Avatar

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    Default Re: Where the 2018 Law Book is actually different from 2017

    Quote Originally Posted by Balones View Post
    What we have to remember is that at a knock on by the attacking side this creates a dead ball because it is an offence. The action of the defending side of making the ball dead in some way is the second action of making the ball dead. Under such circumstances the ref applies the first. Therefore 5M scrum.
    This does not create a dead ball. The ball only becomes dead when the referee blows to stop play or the goes dead (dead ball line, touchin-goal )

    Then please explain law 12.11

    11. Apart from at a kick-off or restart kick, if the ball is played or taken into in-goal by an
    attacking player and is made dead by an opponent, play is restarted with a 22-metre drop-out.

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    Default Re: Where the 2018 Law Book is actually different from 2017

    Quote Originally Posted by Camquin View Post
    So Red knock on, blue gather, run forward 22m and then into touch. What do you give?
    If the referee decides there has been sufficient advantage played (assuming that advantage is being played because you did not say) then it is a lineout. If not then a scrum to the defending side 5M from the try line. (Assuming of course that red were the attacking side and the knock on took place in goal.)
    Last edited by Balones; 25-12-17 at 20:12.

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    Default Re: Where the 2018 Law Book is actually different from 2017

    This ^^^^^

  10. #30

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    Default Re: Where the 2018 Law Book is actually different from 2017

    Quote Originally Posted by crossref View Post
    2018 Law reference please ?
    19.1 p90 as I have said before. Or are you actually saying that a knock on does not create a situation where the referee doesn’t/can blow his whistle? A knock on is an offence under law and has been for as long as I can remember.
    Last edited by Balones; 25-12-17 at 20:12.

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