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Thread: Where the 2018 Law Book is actually different from 2017

      
  1. #31

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    Default Re: Where the 2018 Law Book is actually different from 2017

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisR View Post
    This does not create a dead ball. The ball only becomes dead when the referee blows to stop play or the goes dead (dead ball line, touchin-goal )

    Then please explain law 12.11

    11. Apart from at a kick-off or restart kick, if the ball is played or taken into in-goal by an
    attacking player and is made dead by an opponent, play is restarted with a 22-metre drop-out.
    No offence creates a dead ball automatically unless the referee decides that an advantage play cannot be offered for whatever reason. If there was a knock on in goal by the attacking side and nobody did snything then we still have a knock on and a dead ball because the referee would have to blow. As you you say a dead ball only happens when the ref blows his whistle but that applies to every offence.

    12.11 applies when there is no previous offence by the attacking side to the making of the ball dead by the defending side.
    Last edited by Balones; 25-12-17 at 20:12.

  2. #32

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    Default Re: Where the 2018 Law Book is actually different from 2017

    This is so much fun
    For last few years i have been disputing knock on INSIDE the in goal and everyone has been hitting me around the round with 22.7.b as a guiding light
    And now 22.7.b is gone suddenly everyone is saying it was redundant all along
    This one will run and run
    Last edited by crossref; 25-12-17 at 20:12.

  3. #33

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    Default Re: Where the 2018 Law Book is actually different from 2017

    Don’t forget 22.13.
    2018 is a simplified interpretation of 2017 and they will co-exist until a newer amended version comes out which may include the trials/experiments that are taking place at the moment. 2018 is a start and a brave attempt at rectifying a large number of issues that have caused concern over the years. One of the first things that may need to be done if the 2018 vesion in some form continues is to update the references in the law clarifications that are on the WR website since they are also law. That process should be interesting!

  4. #34

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    Default Re: Where the 2018 Law Book is actually different from 2017

    Quote Originally Posted by crossref View Post
    This is so much fun
    For last few years i have been disputing knock on INSIDE the in goal and everyone has been hitting me around the round with 22.7.b as a guiding light
    And now 22.7.b is gone suddenly everyone is saying it was redundant all along
    This one will run and run
    No, this is not correct. Its not GONE, its just been reworded

    2018 Law 11 KNOCK-ON
    1. A knock- on may occur anywhere in the playing area.
    2. It is a knock-on when a player, in tackling or attempting to tackle an opponent, makes
    contact with the ball and the ball goes forward. Sanction: Scrum.

    In-goal is part of the playing area


    2018 Law 19
    The purpose of a scrum is to restart play with a contest for possession after a minor
    infringement or stoppage.

    1. Where the game is restarted with a scrum and which team throws in is determined as
    follows:



    The scrum zone is defined in Law 1 (bottom right diagram on page 25)

    The end result is exactly the same... whether the ball is knocked on in-goal or knocked on INTO in goal, the mark for the scrum is 5m out, nearest to the the knock on, defending team to feed.

    The specific reference is gone because the rewording and reorganisation has removed the need for it. ...but the Law has NOT changed!

    NOTE: It seems pretty obvious to me that this new "scrumzone" has been implemented to remove the need for all those references (dozens of them) to "5m out from the goal line" and "5m in from touch". By having a table in 2018 Law 19 showing the type of Infringement or stoppage, the location of the scrum and who throws in, they have removed the need for a LOT of wording in the Law. The Law simply says that the sanction is a scrum, and you go to Law 19 to find where the mark is.
    Last edited by Ian_Cook; 25-12-17 at 21:12.
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  5. #35

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    Default Re: Where the 2018 Law Book is actually different from 2017

    While on the same page as you Ian I cannot help but think that it would have been of benefit to have put Sanction - Scrum after 11.1 as well as 11.2. I think they have intended to join the two together but not made it 100% clear. It certainly would have made our arguments/positions a lot less refutable.

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    Default Re: Where the 2018 Law Book is actually different from 2017

    The location of the scrum is not an issue (and on truth never has been)
    This discussion all about the application of the advantage law.

  7. #37

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    Default Re: Where the 2018 Law Book is actually different from 2017

    Quote Originally Posted by crossref View Post
    The location of the scrum is not an issue (and on truth never has been)
    This discussion all about the application of the advantage law.
    No! Your argument AIUI is that if you play the advantage,

    1. if no advantage accrues, you award a 5m scrum
    2. if you call advantage over before the defending team gets the ball out of in-goal and the defenders touch the ball down, you can award a DO22, thereby using the advanantge Law to do an end run around a Law you don't like.

    This is wrong! Advantage must be territorial or tactical. There cannot be any tactical advantage accrued for a knock-on in or into goal until the defending team gets the ball out of the in goal. No referee worth his salt is going to call advantage over when the defending team is still trying to exit the in-goal.
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    Default Re: Where the 2018 Law Book is actually different from 2017

    Quote Originally Posted by Balones View Post
    While on the same page as you Ian I cannot help but think that it would have been of benefit to have put Sanction - Scrum after 11.1 as well as 11.2. I think they have intended to join the two together but not made it 100% clear. It certainly would have made our arguments/positions a lot less refutable.
    I don't think so. 11.1 is not saying what a knock-on is, only where it can happen. (see Law 14, 15, 16)

    A Sanction should only be listed when a specific "instruction" is given by the Law
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  9. #39

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    Default Re: Where the 2018 Law Book is actually different from 2017

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian_Cook View Post
    I don't think so. 11.1 is not saying what a knock-on is, only where it can happen. (see Law 14, 15, 16)

    A Sanction should only be listed when a specific "instruction" is given by the Law
    I accept what you say because I agree. It’s just that I also think that it would have been useful to have put it there also. The fact that it just saying where it can happen doesn’t negate the usefulness of putting it there also in my opinion.

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    Default Re: Where the 2018 Law Book is actually different from 2017

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian_Cook View Post
    No! Your argument AIUI is that if you play the advantage,

    1. if no advantage accrues, you award a 5m scrum
    2. if you call advantage over before the defending team gets the ball out of in-goal and the defenders touch the ball down, you can award a DO22, thereby using the advanantge Law to do an end run around a Law you don't like.

    This is wrong! Advantage must be territorial or tactical. There cannot be any tactical advantage accrued for a knock-on in or into goal until the defending team gets the ball out of the in goal. No referee worth his salt is going to call advantage over when the defending team is still trying to exit the in-goal.
    No, not at all.

    I am saying that the after a knock on there are a number of ways the non infringing team might gain advantage.
    So normally you would call advantage' over if

    .. they get in front of the gain line (where the scrum would be) with clean possession

    .. they are able to kick (not under pressure ) some distance down field

    .. they are able to kick (not under pressure ) for touch with gain in ground

    .. they able to kick the ball out of play to end the game
    .. they touch down the ball in the opposition in goal to score a try
    .. they are able (not under pressure) to touch the ball in their own in goal for a 22m dropout

    I think you will agree with all of those , except the last one . I think your position is harder to justify with the 2018 law book

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