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Thread: From ARU online referee course

      
  1. #11
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    Default Re: From ARU online referee course

    Quote Originally Posted by Balones View Post
    I can understand your logic and have some sympathy but the logic behind the law is that you are only certain about who is in possession when the maul starts. When a maul forms you are unsighted and as such may not be able to determine who is in possession when it collapses. The law takes the possible inconsistency out of the situation.

    But the "use it" is applicable when the ball is avaiulable to one or other side. So you do know who is now in possession, You are not unsighted, if you were you would not be calling "use it".

  2. #12
    Player or Coach ChrisR's Avatar

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    Default Re: From ARU online referee course

    Referencing only the 2018 Laws because these should be the base for moving forward.

    From maul law page 74.

    17. A maul ends unsuccessfully when: (I've deleted items not relevant to OP)
    b. The maul collapses (not as a result of foul play).

    d. The ball-carrier goes to ground and the ball is not immediately available.

    e. The ball is available to be played, the referee has called “use it” and it has not been played within five seconds of the call.

    Sanction: Scrum.

    . . . and we also have:

    18. If a maul is formed immediately after a player has directly caught an opponent’s kick in open play, a scrum that is awarded for any of the above reasons will be to the team of the ball catcher.

    From the scrum law table page 91.

    Infringement/stoppage Who throws in

    A maul that ends unsuccessfully. The team not in possession at the start of the maul. If the referee cannot decide which team had possession, the team moving forward before the maul stopped. If neither team was moving forward, the attacking team.

    An unplayable maul after kick in open play. The team in possession at the start of the maul.

    Failure to “use it” at scrum, ruck or maul. The team not in possession.


    Mauls can be incredibly messy. Was it caught from a kick and was the maul immediate? Was the ball stripped before or after the maul formed? Was it stalled or moving? etc. etc.

    The one thing that is C & O: The ball was available, they were told to use it, they didn't. Therefore the scrum feed goes to the team not in possession.
    Last edited by ChrisR; 31-12-17 at 13:12.

  3. #13

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    Default Re: From ARU online referee course

    So that there is no element for doubt (until someone gets it changed by WR) for inexperienced referee and those not so aware of the nature of the RR forum, the expectation in practice is that you will award the scrum to the side not in possession at the start of the maul. To not do this would result in you risking a law error comment in your report. Whether you like it or not. You would most likely receive some adverse comments from some knowledgeable directors of rugby/coaches as well.

  4. #14
    Player or Coach ChrisR's Avatar

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    Default Re: From ARU online referee course

    Well, Mr. Reportwriter Sir, the ball was caught by Red from a Blue kick in open play, the catcher took two steps before Blue wrapped him up and drove him backwards as Red support joined. At some point the ball was stripped from Red but Red was driving forward when the whole mess collapsed. Blue placed the ball on the ground and it was immediately available to the Blue SH. I called "Use it!" but he was too busy picking his nose so after 5 secs I said (to myself) "**** this, if you don't want it you don't get it" and awarded a scrum to Red.

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    Default Re: From ARU online referee course

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisR View Post
    Well, Mr. Reportwriter Sir, the ball was caught by Red from a Blue kick in open play, the catcher took two steps before Blue wrapped him up and drove him backwards as Red support joined. At some point the ball was stripped from Red but Red was driving forward when the whole mess collapsed. Blue placed the ball on the ground and it was immediately available to the Blue SH. I called "Use it!" but he was too busy picking his nose so after 5 secs I said (to myself) "**** this, if you don't want it you don't get it" and awarded a scrum to Red.
    With my coach’s hat on - “You shouldn’t let emotion or frustration get in the way of making the right decision”.��

  6. #16

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    Default Re: From ARU online referee course

    Strictly speaking at the level I am observing I am not allowed to ‘coach’ in my reports (the coaches get upset because that is their job!) but simply report on what I observe/see.) However when I am coaching I would tell the referee that if the ball does come out the ‘other side’ I would advise not calling a ‘use it’ so that the side not in possession at the start gets the benefit and rewarded for their efforts. Making a safe and expected decision isn’t a bad thing for overall management.

  7. #17

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    Default Re: From ARU online referee course

    Lets be fair, the scenario is a very unusual one , which you would rarely see
    Blue successfully steal the ball, and make it available .. but then refuse to use it, because they prefer a scrum (which they are very confident the ref will give them , despite the refusal to use it
    )
    Blimey .. if blue wanted a scrum they are going about it the hard way..just wrap them up and wait for the turnover !

    Silly scenario, silly structure for the question as well .. choose the sentence which is wrong .. is it a law exam or a logic puzzle
    Last edited by crossref; 31-12-17 at 15:12.

  8. #18

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    Default Re: From ARU online referee course

    I'm with CR with this - unless the question is being asked to test a ref's thought processes rather than get a "right answer" it does seem somewhat of a clever-cloggs-gotcha question.

    TBH IF it ever happened in a game I reckon you can sell it either way. Lets face it - whichever way you call it one side will think you are wrong anyway.

    didds
    Last edited by didds; 31-12-17 at 15:12.

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    Default Re: From ARU online referee course

    Where in law does FAILING gain a reward? To reward the failure to use the ball with a scrum is absurd.

  10. #20

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    Default Re: From ARU online referee course

    Quote Originally Posted by Pegleg View Post
    Where in law does FAILING gain a reward? To reward the failure to use the ball with a scrum is absurd.
    Wouldn't be a reward if you were being stuffed in the scrums!

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