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Thread: From ARU online referee course

      
  1. #41

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    Default Re: From ARU online referee course

    Quote Originally Posted by Jolly Roger View Post
    I have just downloaded the 2018 law book which states:

    LAW 16
    15. When a maul has stopped moving towards a goal line, it may restart moving towards a goal line providing it does so within five seconds. If it stops a second time but the ball is being moved and the referee can see it, the referee instructs the team to use the ball. The team in possession must then use the ball in a reasonable time. Sanction: Scrum.

    So no change there.
    Yes, that Law would imply Scrum to Team A

    BUT

    A maul ends unsuccessfully when
    - The ball becomes unplayable
    - The maul collapses (not as a result of foul play)
    - The maul does not move towards a goal line for longer than five seconds and the ball does not emerge.
    - The ball-carrier goes to ground and the ball is not immediately available
    - The ball is available to be played, the referee has called “use it” and it has not been played within five seconds of the call.
    Sanction:Scrum


    and

    Infringement / stoppage Location of scrum Who throws in
    - A maul that ends unsuccessfully.
    - In the scrum zone at the point closest to where the maul ended.
    - The team not in possession at the start of the maul.


    Which implies scrum to Team B

    So you have to take your choice which Law to apply

    Here on the Forum we have votes for A and votes for B
    The ARU have a view, but they have hidden the view inside a riddle.

    It's not really clear what is the correct - or best - answer

  2. #42

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    Default Re: From ARU online referee course

    So if the pseudo-legalese is unclear, let's apply a little rugby sense: if the ball is available and the team fails to use it after being told to do so, that is in itself an infringement (failure to respect the authority of the referee). The scrum should therefore go to their opponents.
    He trudg’d along unknowing what he sought,
    And whistled as he went, for want of thought.
    The Referee by John Dryden

  3. #43

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    Default Re: From ARU online referee course

    Quote Originally Posted by OB.. View Post
    So if the pseudo-legalese is unclear, let's apply a little rugby sense: if the ball is available and the team fails to use it after being told to do so, that is in itself an infringement (failure to respect the authority of the referee). The scrum should therefore go to their opponents.

    yes, that has my vote.

  4. #44
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    Default Re: From ARU online referee course

    Quote Originally Posted by OB.. View Post
    So if the pseudo-legalese is unclear, let's apply a little rugby sense: if the ball is available and the team fails to use it after being told to do so, that is in itself an infringement (failure to respect the authority of the referee). The scrum should therefore go to their opponents.
    Amen!

  5. #45

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    Default Re: From ARU online referee course

    This is the way I see it.

    1. The requirement for the ball to be played within 5 seconds of a maul becoming stationary is part of 17.6 UNSUCCESSFUL END TO A MAUL.

    2. The overarching instruction for a Maul which ends unsuccessfully is that the scrum feed wil go to the team that was NOT in possession when the Maul began. This is clearly spelled out in Law..

    17.6 (c) Scrum following maul. The ball is thrown in by the team not in possession when the maul began. If the referee cannot decide which team had possession, the team moving forward before the maul stopped throws in the ball. If neither team was moving forward, the attacking team throws in the ball.

    This is completely unambiguous, there is no wiggle room; no possible interpretation of this Law other than what is written. If a team creates a Maul, and then loses the ball in the maul, why should they then benefit from their own failure at the expense of the other team?

    After reading all the other input to this thread, I stand by my original reply in Post#3... Team B gets the feed to the scrum.


    ETA:

    This is also fully supported in the 2018 Laws

    2018 LAW 16: ENDING A MAUL

    17. A maul ends unsuccessfully when:
    a. The ball becomes unplayable.
    b. The maul collapses (not as a result of foul play).
    c. The maul does not move towards a goal line for longer than five seconds and the
    ball does not emerge.
    d. The ball-carrier goes to ground and the ball is not immediately available.
    e. The ball is available to be played, the referee has called “use it” and it has not been
    played within five seconds of the call.


    LAW 19 SCRUM
    1. Where the game is restarted with a scrum and which team throws in is determined as
    follows:




    However, later in the Law they have this



    Oh dear, a conflict in the Laws... who would have thought?

    I guess they still have not fired those pesky 12 year-old proof readers yet!!
    Last edited by Ian_Cook; 01-01-18 at 23:01.
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  6. #46

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    Default Re: From ARU online referee course

    I know on this case you will reach the same conclusion, but shouldn't your Law references be to the current Law Book , rather than last year's ?

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    Default Re: From ARU online referee course

    17.6 (g) second paragraph and NOT 17.6 (c) is the crucial law here.

  8. #48

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    Default Re: From ARU online referee course

    Quote Originally Posted by Pegleg View Post
    17.6 (g) second paragraph and NOT 17.6 (c) is the crucial law here.
    And what makes that so?

    17.6 (c) states "Scrum after maul". For mine that makes it the overarching instruction as regards the whys and wherefores of a scrum after a maul. Otherwise, why have that Law?

    I agree its counter-intuitive, but that doesn't mean its wrong
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  9. #49

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    Default Re: From ARU online referee course

    Quote Originally Posted by crossref View Post
    I am confused by the structure of the question, if it's incorrect that it's wrong , then it's right etc.

    For me if B gain possession in the maul but subsequently ignore my call of use it, I would give the scrum to Team A , and I don't think anyone would complain.
    I have heard back from ARU and they have confirmed that Team A should get the scrum feed
    I, for one, like Roman numerals

  10. #50
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    Default Re: From ARU online referee course

    For me this is why:


    20.6 (g) Specifically deals with the 5 second use it scenario


    2017 Book

    20.6 (g) If the ball carrier in a maul goes to ground, including being on one or both knees or sitting, the referee orders a scrum unless the ball is immediately available.
    When the ball is available to be played the referee will call “Use it!” after which the ball must be played within five seconds. If the ball is not played within five seconds the referee will award a scrum and the team not in possession of the ball is awarded the throw-in.


    2018 Book

    Scrum Matrix

    Infringement / stoppage
    Failure to “use it” at scrum, ruck or maul.

    Location of scrum
    In the scrum zone at the point closest to where the scrum, ruck or maul took place.

    Who throws in
    The team not in possessionRemember the Use it law was a later addition hence the sparate Law. See further the 2018 re write:

    17. A maul ends unsuccessfully when:
    a. The ball becomes unplayable.
    b. The maul collapses (not as a result of foul play).
    c. The maul does not move towards a goal line for longer than five seconds and the
    ball does not emerge.
    d. The ball-carrier goes to ground and the ball is not immediately available.
    e. The ball is available to be played, the referee has called “use it” and it has not been
    played within five seconds of the call.
    Sanction: Scrum.

    Someone asked why it did not state who get the scrum in the rewrite. Well, it could be becasue it is different for clauses a-d (not taking in side) and e (the side not in possession).
    Last edited by Pegleg; 02-01-18 at 00:01.

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