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Thread: Ireland v France - HIA issue

      
  1. #41

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    Default Re: Ireland v France - HIA issue

    Quote Originally Posted by crossref View Post
    2 by attaching special on field privileges to suspected head injuries, WR are encouraging teams to pretend they have symptoms . This is not a good idea.
    Headgate?

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  2. #42

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    Arrow Re: Ireland v France - HIA issue

    I agree with crossref’s point, nothing will come of it. It is a thing of nothing & the announced investigation into the affair is more about waiting to see if it will blow over.

    I thought I would share this opinion from the pundits on Irish TV. I think the point of view of Bernard Jackman is particularly relevant here. Since he has plenty of experience as an Elite coach and is well aware how teams take advantage of the HIA protocols.

    Quote Originally Posted by RTE
    In the first-half incident (Blue 10) on the half hour mark, the team doctor who went on the pitch to treat the player said it was a knee injury. Yet he was over ruled by the Independent doctor sitting in the stands. The pundits pointing out that this «*independent*» doctor sits on a committee of the French union and is the father of the team’s physio.
    The process needs to be seen to be impartial, surely?

    In the second half incident (Blue 21); at 76 minutes of play, it is Blue 12 who rushes in to tell the referee it is a head injury. The French hooker was captain up until the 73rd minute. He was surely not replaced in this function by a rookie with just 2 caps to his name. Given he is not the team captain, should he even be speaking to Nigel Owens?
    But then the center was being very vocal with his team mates throughout the game. Perhaps he should concentrate more on his own game, as he had a pretty poor performance in Paris. Questionable whether he had a better view of the collision than anybody else.

    Donal Lenihan commenting: "It is a big deal because the HIA assessment is there for the protection and the welfare of the players.*
    "The reason it has potential to be abused is because of the*law in relation to when a player can come back on to the field."
    This is very much about the integrity of the whole HIA process. Using the law as a tactical element, is potentially putting players at risk.

    Source RTE pundits

    I think the issue lies there, Player safety must come first, but not in the way France are trying to push it.
    To be honest the French Union is in meltdown right now, the President is subject to police investigation for corruption. Meanwhile he sacked the only viable coach, insinuating that Noves was not only useless, but also dishonest. Bernard Laporte it would seem is dragging French rugby down to a very dark place.
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  3. #43

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    Default Re: Ireland v France - HIA issue

    HIA doesn't put the safety of the player first.

    Putting player safety first would be Recognise and Remove

    HIA is about taking a calculated risk with player safety, and letting them play on.

    We need to tear up the HIA protocol and start again,.

  4. #44

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    Default Re: Ireland v France - HIA issue

    Quote Originally Posted by crossref View Post
    HIA is about taking a calculated risk with player safety, and letting them play on.

    We need to tear up the HIA protocol and start again,.
    I wasn't aware you had a qualification in head trauma?

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  5. #45

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    Lightbulb Re: Ireland v France - HIA issue

    I feel, if the protocol was applied correctly, it is essentially the same as recognise and remove. Given that a HIA is only called for, if a player has potentially had a head-injury and any potential head injury requires the player to be permanently removed from play. I don’t disagree with you that Elite/International sides are f’ing around with the protocol and using it as a means to return players to the field of play. The sooner a match doctor gets struck off for unprofessional behaviour, the better for player safety, in my humble opinion.

    World Rugby- HIA protocol
    Players displaying obvious on-pitch signs of concussion (Criteria 1, Table 1) are immediately and permanently removed from play, and the completion of the off-field screening tool and medical evaluation is not required. Any other cases, where players have the potential for concussion (Criteria 2, Table 1), but without clear on-pitch symptoms or signs, undergo an off-field assessment consisting of a medical room clinical evaluation by an attending doctor supported by the multi-modal screening tool, and video review.
    The play on words, like obvious (on-pitch signs) needs to be removed from the protocol. We have seen players like BOD and Sexton sparked out and then returned to the field of play moments later. That obviously needs to stop.
    Last edited by L'irlandais; 08-02-18 at 10:02.
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  6. #46

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    Default Re: Ireland v France - HIA issue

    Phil - you think that a negative result in an HIA shows conclusively that they don't have concussion, so there is no risk ?

    The people with qualifications in head trauma don't think so - they know there is stil la chance of concussion, which is why there is a back up test to check...


    Any player who undertakes an HIA (irrespective of the result) must undertake a further clinical assessment supported by the SCAT 3 immediately after the match and again at 36-48 hours – it is during this period that the diagnosis occurs


    You don't need a qualification to understand that returning a player with a suspected HI to the pitch is taking a risk.

    To estimate the size of the risk ... yes that needs some expertise.

  7. #47

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    Default Re: Ireland v France - HIA issue

    Quote Originally Posted by crossref View Post
    Phil - you think that a negative result in an HIA shows conclusively that they don't have concussion, so there is no risk ?
    I am not qualified to make that judgement. My point was that neither are you.

    You don't need a qualification to understand that returning a player with a suspected HI to the pitch is taking a risk.
    If he is suspected of a HI he won't return to play, that is the point of the HIA.

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    Default Re: Ireland v France - HIA issue

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil E View Post
    If he is suspected of a HI he won't return to play, that is the point of the HIA.
    No, if he is suspected of having a head injury he leaves the field

    In non-elite rugby that's it, he stays off

    In elite rugby he then undertakes an HIA and depending on the result may be allowed back on


    The HIA is not the mechanism that takes him off the pitch -- the HIA is the mechanism that allows him back on again


    (The acknowledged risk of a false negative from the HIA is the reason why he has to have a second assessment after the game)
    Last edited by crossref; 08-02-18 at 11:02.

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    Arrow Re: Ireland v France - HIA issue

    Given that in 90% of cases when the match referee calls for a HiA, he has done so either because the player looked dazed or the ref suspected the player may have lost consciousness; then logically those players have already failed the HIA, as soon as the whistle is blown. Phil, crossref is right in asserting Elite set-ups are turning the existing HIA protocol on its head, to use it as a means to return players to the field of play. This is because in the results based culture of professional rugby; player safety has visibly taken a back seat.
    Criteria for permanent removal from play or medical room head injury assessment.

    Section 1 of the HIA 1 form.
    A player must be immediately and permanently removed from further participation in a match if they have any of the following on-field signs or symptoms:
    Confirmed loss of consciousness
    x Suspected loss of consciousness
    Convulsion
    Tonic posturing
    Balance disturbance / ataxia
    x Clearly dazed
    Player not orientated in time, place and person
    Definite confusion
    Definite behavioural changes
    Oculomotor signs (e.g. spontaneous nystagmus)
    On field identification of signs or symptoms of concussion

    Source : Annexe 4
    "We demand strict proof for opinions we dislike, but are satisfied with mere hints for what we’re inclined to accept."
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  10. #50

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    Default Re: Ireland v France - HIA issue

    Just becasue people are abusing the system, it doesn't mean the system is wrong.

    That's like saying computers make mistakes. The don't, programmers make mistakes, the computers just do what the programmer programmes.

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