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Thread: Ireland v France - HIA issue

      
  1. #51

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    Default Re: Ireland v France - HIA issue

    to pursue your analogy for a moment - programmers have a lot of different programming environments they can use.

    If they construct a business critical system using an VBA macros and Excel spreadsheets, rather than a proper production environment, then more mistakes will be made , because it's the wrong tool/environment

    I'm saying that the HIA protocol (doubtless well intentioned) is a flawed system, and one of the symptoms are these incidents that come up.

    They should have a re-think.

  2. #52

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    Default Re: Ireland v France - HIA issue

    Quote Originally Posted by crossref View Post
    They should have a re-think.
    I feel sure that it is a constantly reviewed process, as medical knowledge in this area increases all the time.

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  3. #53

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    Thumbs down Re: Ireland v France - HIA issue

    I think you are being somewhat disingenuous. How many times have we seen Elite players who were clearly dazed, returned to the field of play? Practically each and every time. Yet «*clearly dazed*» is one of the criteria for permanent exclusion. The player is not being mistakenly returned to play, that’s just naive to believe that.

    It is not very helpful when the *RFU’s head of medicine contradicts Ex-World Rugby medical advisor Dr Barry O'Driscoll [who] has said the system is "not fit for purpose".
    The Irishman is being shunned like a whistleblower now.

    But *Dr Simon Kemp told the BBC the HIA process is protecting players.

    WTF! There are a hundred examples online of how wrong he is with that «*brush the issue under the carpet*» statement. North may have lost consciousness. (One of five instances, involving the player)

    Another example of disingenuous is the iRFU. Currently Unions cannot respect the HIA protocol, because they simply have zero intention of respecting the subsequent return to play protocol.

    See this very recent example for details. Spoiler alert, includes Irish coach saying on live TV, that Sexton had passed his HIA. The club (Leinster) later explained this was not the case. So Sexton failed HIA, on 13 of December. Then played again 10 days later. Return to play protocol not respected, surely? Source: Irish mainstream press

    While in the grassroots game, 19 days is the minimum return to play lay-off for an adult, in Elite rugby it is 6 games. Sexton should not be playing right now.
    Last edited by L'irlandais; 08-02-18 at 13:02.
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  4. #54

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    Default Re: Ireland v France - HIA issue

    Quote Originally Posted by L'irlandais View Post
    I think you are being somewhat disingenuous. How many times have we seen Elite players who were clearly dazed, returned to the field of play?
    At the risk of repeating myself..again...people abusing the system doesn't mean the system is wrong, it means those people are wrong. You can put as many processes in place as you like but if people ignore them they will fail. That doesn't mean the process is bad.

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    Default Re: Ireland v France - HIA issue

    that's true -- but this process IS bad !

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    Default Re: Ireland v France - HIA issue

    in which case there are two bad things happening separately. The abuse is not because the underlying system may be perceived as bad.

    didds

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    Default Re: Ireland v France - HIA issue

    it's more complicated than that: because a poorly designed system often lays itself open to abuse - indeed it's one of the hallmarks.

    For instance when supermarkets introduce self-service checkouts it's entirely predictable that there is more theft. The supermarkets make an estimate of the cost of the theft v the savings in labour costs.
    Of course every individual theft is the responsibility of the thief. But on the other hand it's also an entirely predictable, and predicted, result of the system used.

    Same with HIA - they have designed a system specifically to allow someone suspected of concussion to be able - if he can pass the HIA - to play on.

    So it's entirely predictable that some players with suspected concussion will pass the HIA and be allowed to play on..

    On the other side of the coin

    HIA introduced a system whereby one type of injury (suspected head) is treated much more favourably than others (suspected knee) (because players can come on to temporarily replace them etc).

    So it's inevitable that and entirely predictable that teams will pretend to have suspected Head injuries.


    A poor system rewards bad behavior, so creates it.

  8. #58

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    Post Re: Ireland v France - HIA issue

    Quote Originally Posted by L'irlandais View Post
    Ex-World Rugby medical advisor Dr Barry O'Driscoll has said the system is "not fit for purpose".
    We do spend alot of time repeating ourselves on RRF. (Roll on the weekend when we get something new to argue about.). What more proof do you need that the current system is not working? A medical expert has distanced himself from WR, because he knows they are unwilling to change. Honesty is such a lonely word, just ask Dr. o’D.

    Let’s be clear though there is a distinction between the danger of head injury in the grassroots game and this blatant disregard for player safety creeping into the Elite game. Currently a player can expect a seven year career at the top level. Seven years, because financial interests have turned the thinking man’s game of skill for all shapes and sizes, into a collision-based sport for those exceeding 100kgs of muscle. There is the real underlying problem, the arms race to muscle-up is unsustainable.

    Sexton is a prime example, he has clearly exceed his quota of head injuries.
    Mysteriously the IRfU were happy when Racing 92 were forced to protect the player with a 3 month layoff. Yet they are clearly not prepared to offer him the same level of protection.

    The truth of the matter is, everybody is winging it.

    Honesty in rugby is a murky subject at best. As McLaughlin notes the culture in rugby is to play through pain. When players like Paul O’Connell are playing through Test matches with a broken arm, it sets a tone for everyone else and concussion, or what is brushed off by some players as feeling ‘dazed’ or ‘woozy’, is no exception.


    Such disregard is filtering down to the grassroots game:

    Schools rugby clip, everybody, referee included get carried away with excitement and a player (team captain) is allowed to play on, despite having been completely and clearly disorientated.
    "We demand strict proof for opinions we dislike, but are satisfied with mere hints for what we’re inclined to accept."
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  9. #59

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    Default Re: Ireland v France - HIA issue

    For every expert that says one thing there are usually a dozen to be found who say the opposite.

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    Default Re: Ireland v France - HIA issue

    Just last week I had a coach telling me he was taking a player off for an HIA
    I said . We don't have HIA at this level
    He said .. I know, but I am taking him off to check him over
    I said .. because you suspect he had a head injury ?
    He said .. well , we're not sure .

    Q .. would you let that player back on again later ?

    (I had not personally witnessed any incident or anything else to make me think he had an injury )

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