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Thread: uncontested maul restart

      
  1. #41

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    Default Re: uncontested maul restart

    Quote Originally Posted by Dickie E View Post
    Interesting. So if a defender comes around and stands next to attacking SH and ref calls 'use it'? Would we tell the defender to leave SH alone until he passes it?
    You are correct to point out the problem , the law and the guidance are not really in sync

    We have a group of blue players formed up expecting a maul, with the ball at the back

    It's not a maul, so they can't move forward
    But if they do move forward we are told not give a PK for obstruction (as per the law) but instead a scrum

    But if it's not a maul there is no Law that allows the referee to order them to 'use it' but we are told to tell them that anyway

    And if it's not a maul then the ball has left the line of touch so the lineout is over , so we can't penalise blue for leaving the lineout ... But we are told that if blue retreat then to PK them for it

    And if it's not a maul, as you say, blue can come round to the red side of the ball

    Let's face it, it's a mess

  2. #42
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    Default Re: uncontested maul restart

    Well played, crossref, you have nailed the problem. So, now for the solution.

    After the ball is caught in the lineout and the teammates in the lineout bind to him and the opponents chose not to engage:

    If the ball is held at the front and the mob advances

    the defenders can chose to engage above the hips and form the maul or tackle the BC below the hips and bring him to ground. Either way there is no offence by either side. Once the ball moves off the line- of-touch (or 'mark' in 2018 terms) then we are in general play.

    If the ball is passed back to a player behind the catcher then the ball has left the mark and the lineout is over, we are in general play and any defender can come around the mob to tackle the ball carrier.

    If the ball is passed back before a maul is formed and an attempt is mad to reach the BC through the mob or the mob advances and is then engaged by the defenders then "accidental offsides" is the call and a defending scrum is ordered.

  3. #43

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    Default Re: uncontested maul restart

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisR View Post
    If the ball is passed back before a maul is formed and an attempt is mad to reach the BC through the mob or the mob advances and is then engaged by the defenders then "accidental offsides" is the call and a defending scrum is ordered.
    In this scenario hasn't a maul formed?

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  4. #44
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    Default Re: uncontested maul restart

    No. If the ball is at the back of a mob then players in front of the BC are obstructing. A maul forms when the BC is first grasped by a defender and then the BC's teammates bind on.

  5. #45

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    Default Re: uncontested maul restart

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisR View Post
    No. If the ball is at the back of a mob then players in front of the BC are obstructing. A maul forms when the BC is first grasped by a defender and then the BC's teammates bind on.
    But that hardly ever happens at a lineout.

    Generally if the ball is handed to a ripper and then the defenders bind onto the jumper (who is no longer the ball carrier) we call Maul. Or at least all the referees I watch do.

    So what is the difference when the ball is at the back of a mob of players who are all bound to each other and (to quote you) "an attempt is mad to reach the BC through the mob or the mob advances and is then engaged by the defenders". The player trying to fight through the mob or the defender who engages have formed a maul.

    This is no different to what everyone has agreed in this thread that "if the ball is at the back and a defender engages above the waist" he has bound on and we have a maul.

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  6. #46
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    Default Re: uncontested maul restart

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil E View Post
    But that hardly ever happens at a lineout.

    Generally if the ball is handed to a ripper and then the defenders bind onto the jumper (who is no longer the ball carrier) we call Maul. Or at least all the referees I watch do.

    So what is the difference when the ball is at the back of a mob of players who are all bound to each other and (to quote you) "an attempt is mad to reach the BC through the mob or the mob advances and is then engaged by the defenders". The player trying to fight through the mob or the defender who engages have formed a maul.

    This is no different to what everyone has agreed in this thread that "if the ball is at the back and a defender engages above the waist" he has bound on and we have a maul.
    Weren't we supposed to clamp down on this a couple of years ago, along with the long presentings and sliding ball carriers?
    Last edited by DocY; 08-03-18 at 15:03.

  7. #47

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    Default Re: uncontested maul restart

    Quote Originally Posted by DocY View Post
    Weren't we supposed to clamp down on this a couple of years ago, along with the long presentings and sliding ball carriers.
    Don't think so.
    As I recall it was just long arm transfers and ball carriers sliding back as you say.

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  8. #48
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    Default Re: uncontested maul restart

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil E View Post
    But that hardly ever happens at a lineout.

    Generally if the ball is handed to a ripper and then the defenders bind onto the jumper (who is no longer the ball carrier) we call Maul. Or at least all the referees I watch do.

    So what is the difference when the ball is at the back of a mob of players who are all bound to each other and (to quote you) "an attempt is mad to reach the BC through the mob or the mob advances and is then engaged by the defenders". The player trying to fight through the mob or the defender who engages have formed a maul.

    This is no different to what everyone has agreed in this thread that "if the ball is at the back and a defender engages above the waist" he has bound on and we have a maul.
    Yes, I agree that in the general case all this happens pretty much simultaneously and again, I agree, a maul has formed.

    However, when the ops don't engage and the ball is passed to the back (not a "long present" or "sliding BC") there is a time where there is not a maul and the ball is behind players in an offside position. Has the lineout ended? I think so and so have the lineout offside lines. If nobody moves this can become a stalemate so it makes sense for the referee to call for the ball to be played away with "Use it!" even tho technically it's not a maul.

    If the ops challenge for the ball can they run around behind the mob to get at the BC? If the lineout has ended then I'd say for sure, have at it. If the ops try to go thru the players in front of the ball then I think 'accidental offsides' is fair to to discourage milking a PK. Same with the mob moving forward to force engagement with the ball at the back.

    What I don't agree with is the direction that the defending lineout players step aside to leave an unprotected channel for the mob to move through.

  9. #49

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    Default Re: uncontested maul restart

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisR View Post
    Yes, I agree that in the general case all this happens pretty much simultaneously and again, I agree, a maul has formed.

    However, when the ops don't engage and the ball is passed to the back (not a "long present" or "sliding BC") there is a time where there is not a maul and the ball is behind players in an offside position. Has the lineout ended? I think so and so have the lineout offside lines. If nobody moves this can become a stalemate so it makes sense for the referee to call for the ball to be played away with "Use it!" even tho technically it's not a maul.

    If the ops challenge for the ball can they run around behind the mob to get at the BC? If the lineout has ended then I'd say for sure, have at it. If the ops try to go thru the players in front of the ball then I think 'accidental offsides' is fair to to discourage milking a PK. Same with the mob moving forward to force engagement with the ball at the back.

    What I don't agree with is the direction that the defending lineout players step aside to leave an unprotected channel for the mob to move through.
    If the mob move forward I am going Peep Accidental Offside.
    If the defenders move forward and bind (try to push through) then I am going Play On as they have chosen to engage.

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  10. #50

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    Default Re: uncontested maul restart

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil E View Post
    If the mob move forward I am going Peep Accidental Offside.
    If the defenders move forward and bind (try to push through) then I am going Play On as they have chosen to engage.
    You cannot pass the ball back before the maul is formed by an opponent binding on.

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