Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 23

Thread: Ground against cormer flag

      
  1. #1

    Referees in England


    Soc/Assoc
    --
    Grade
    Grassroots
    Join Date
    14 Sep 09
    Posts
    17,109
    Thanks (Received)
    135
    Likes (Received)
    1652

    Default Ground against cormer flag

    Interesting issue that came up in the Saracen Wasps semi final

    White , attacking , attempt to score but grounds the ball against the base of corner flag post .

    So what's the restart
    - lineout to black
    - 22m dropout to black
    - depends on exactly where the ball was grounded .. ask the TMO

  2. #2
    Player or Coach ChrisR's Avatar

    Soc/Assoc
    None
    Grade
    Select Grade
    Join Date
    14 Jul 10
    Posts
    3,227
    Thanks (Received)
    33
    Likes (Received)
    320

    Default Re: Ground against cormer flag

    Assuming this 'corner flag' is at the intersection of goal line and touch, not dead ball and touch in goal. Assuming that the ball was in contact with corner flag as it was grounded. That is, not on ground first then slid into flag.

    The inner edge of the corner flag should be on the outer edge of touch and goal lines.

    Therefore a ball grounded against the corner flag will be in contact with touch and goal. Therefore, assuming that white took the ball into goal without infringement then a 22 drop out should be ordered.

  3. #3

    Referees in Wales
    Taff's Avatar

    Soc/Assoc
    Llanelli District
    Grade
    WRU Level 2
    Join Date
    23 Aug 09
    Posts
    6,910
    Thanks (Received)
    34
    Likes (Received)
    334

    Default Re: Ground against cormer flag

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisR View Post
    Assuming this 'corner flag' is at the intersection of goal line and touch, not dead ball and touch in goal. Assuming that the ball was in contact with corner flag as it was grounded. That is, not on ground first then slid into flag.
    Works for me Chris.

    Depends where exactly the pole is located; and the Ref / TMO decides if the ball touched the goal line or the TiG line.

    If it was the goal line, then it's a try. If it the TiG line, then 22m Drop out as it was taken in by an attacking player and made dead.
    Last edited by Taff; 19-05-18 at 21:05.

  4. #4

    Advises in England
    OB..'s Avatar

    Soc/Assoc
    Glos & District
    Grade
    Adviser (grass roots)
    Join Date
    07 Oct 04
    Posts
    22,499
    Thanks (Received)
    108
    Likes (Received)
    1524

    Default Re: Ground against cormer flag

    2018
    21.18 If the ball or ball-carrier touches a corner flag or corner flag post without otherwise being in touch or touch-in-goal, play continues unless the ball is grounded against the post.


    2017
    22.12 If the ball or a player carrying the ball touches a flag or a flag (corner) post at the intersection of the touch-in-goal lines and the goal lines or at the intersection of the touch-in-goal lines and the dead ball lines without otherwise being in touch or touch-in-goal the ball is not out of play unless it is first grounded against a flag post.


    I don't find either version particularly clear, but I think the usual view is that touching the post and ground together means touch-in-goal, whatever part of the ground the ball was touching. FWIW I thought the ball was actually grounded just short of the line.
    He trudg’d along unknowing what he sought,
    And whistled as he went, for want of thought.
    The Referee by John Dryden

  5. #5

    Referees in England


    Soc/Assoc
    --
    Grade
    Grassroots
    Join Date
    14 Sep 09
    Posts
    17,109
    Thanks (Received)
    135
    Likes (Received)
    1652

    Default Re: Ground against cormer flag

    So in this particular instance

    First they decided that the ball had been grounded against the post , so no try

    Then JP Doyle asked the TMO to determine the restart , and after some pause while the tmo watched the replay again, a 22 was awarded

  6. #6
    Rugby Club Member

    Soc/Assoc
    None
    Grade
    Select Grade
    Join Date
    28 Feb 17
    Posts
    1,034
    Thanks (Received)
    6
    Likes (Received)
    104
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default Re: Ground against cormer flag

    Personally, if we are talking about the ED attempt just seeing the highlights, I can't see that it was grounded against the post. Try looked good to me, all other things being equal.

    Higlights didn't deal al with the restart

  7. #7

    Referees in New Zealand
    Ian_Cook's Avatar

    Soc/Assoc
    Retired player and referee
    Grade
    Level 2
    Join Date
    12 Jul 05
    Posts
    13,202
    Thanks (Received)
    105
    Likes (Received)
    1435

    Default Re: Ground against cormer flag

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisR View Post
    Assuming this 'corner flag' is at the intersection of goal line and touch, not dead ball and touch in goal. Assuming that the ball was in contact with corner flag as it was grounded. That is, not on ground first then slid into flag.

    The inner edge of the corner flag should be on the outer edge of touch and goal lines.

    Therefore a ball grounded against the corner flag will be in contact with touch and goal. Therefore, assuming that white took the ball into goal without infringement then a 22 drop out should be ordered.
    I have argued that this ought to be mandatory ever since Law was first proposed as an ELV back in December 2007, in fact, what you wrote in your post is just about exactly what the wording was in the ELV...

    1. Posts and flags around the field
    a. Corner posts will be positioned at the outside junction of the goal line and the touch line.
    i. If a player is in possession of the ball and touches a corner post he will not be in touch unless he touches the touchline or the ground beyond the touchline.
    ii. If the ball is not being carried by a player and it touches the corner post the ball will be deemed to be touch in goal.


    In fact, when the ELV's were being trialled in NZ in the Air NZ Cup, that is exactly what was done.



    The way they have the corner flags positioned now, it is quite possible for a ball to be grounded on the goal-line, and touching the flag post, while still not actually touching the TiG line. If you have the flag post positioned as in the photo above, it would be impossible for a grounded ball to touch the flag post without also touching the TiG. This makes a lot more sense to me than what is currently happening.
    "Never underestimate the power of the Internet to lend unwarranted credibility to the colossally misinformed"
    - Jay "Utah" Windley

  8. #8

    Referees in England


    Soc/Assoc
    --
    Grade
    Grassroots
    Join Date
    14 Sep 09
    Posts
    17,109
    Thanks (Received)
    135
    Likes (Received)
    1652

    Default Re: Ground against cormer flag

    So the answer to the OP is that you have to ask the TMO . If the ball was touching the goal line it's a 22m dropout, otherwise a lineout

    The precise position of the post will be important
    If

  9. #9

    Referees in Australia
    Dickie E's Avatar

    Soc/Assoc
    VRRA
    Grade
    Level 2
    Join Date
    19 Jan 07
    Posts
    12,303
    Thanks (Received)
    108
    Likes (Received)
    1277

    Default Re: Ground against cormer flag

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian_Cook View Post
    I have argued that this ought to be mandatory ever since Law was first proposed as an ELV back in December 2007, in fact, what you wrote in your post is just about exactly what the wording was in the ELV...

    1. Posts and flags around the field
    a. Corner posts will be positioned at the outside junction of the goal line and the touch line.
    i. If a player is in possession of the ball and touches a corner post he will not be in touch unless he touches the touchline or the ground beyond the touchline.
    ii. If the ball is not being carried by a player and it touches the corner post the ball will be deemed to be touch in goal.


    In fact, when the ELV's were being trialled in NZ in the Air NZ Cup, that is exactly what was done.



    The way they have the corner flags positioned now, it is quite possible for a ball to be grounded on the goal-line, and touching the flag post, while still not actually touching the TiG line. If you have the flag post positioned as in the photo above, it would be impossible for a grounded ball to touch the flag post without also touching the TiG. This makes a lot more sense to me than what is currently happening.
    Shrug. Not worth sweating over IMO. You can ground the ball against the goal posts for a try without getting anywhere near the white paint.
    I, for one, like Roman numerals

  10. #10

    Referees in New Zealand
    Ian_Cook's Avatar

    Soc/Assoc
    Retired player and referee
    Grade
    Level 2
    Join Date
    12 Jul 05
    Posts
    13,202
    Thanks (Received)
    105
    Likes (Received)
    1435

    Default Re: Ground against cormer flag

    Quote Originally Posted by Dickie E View Post
    Shrug. Not worth sweating over IMO. You can ground the ball against the goal posts for a try without getting anywhere near the white paint.
    Its the outlier case that interests me. While it may not apply at grass roots, it does at pro level where there is a TMO.

    If you ground the ball on the goal-line and simultaneously place the ball against the post, the ball is TiG without getting anywhere near the white paint.
    "Never underestimate the power of the Internet to lend unwarranted credibility to the colossally misinformed"
    - Jay "Utah" Windley

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •