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Thread: Are the french more forgiving?

      
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    Default Are the french more forgiving?

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/44411185

    Both players sign for french clubs, co-incidence? or are the french [supporters/club officials & press] merely more forgiving about such matters?

    In contrast many in the UK applauded the IRFU decision for it's tough 'game values' stance

    who's right?

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    Default Re: Are the french more forgiving?

    There isn't a right answer.

    They are, by law, not guilty of the charges. You could argue that their behavior was reprehensible and contrary to decent values. You could argue that they went through a process, and are not guilty and their behavior is not atypical of a lot of people their age. Role models...I'm sure we can trot out every argument under the sun.

    To use one of our MSF, YMMV.

    What I know: If I, in my job/career function, had done everything they had done, I would be unhireable. I'd have to move State/Country/Job function.

    For my money? If they stayed unemployed, I wouldn't shed a tear.
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    Tullamore Dew, the Afghan Wigs, and many, many strippers - how to get over your ex. How true.

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    Default Re: Are the french more forgiving?

    "Two weeks after the players' acquittals, the IRFU and Ulster revoked their contracts with immediate effect following controversy over details of social media and text messages which emerged during the trial.


    An IRFU/Ulster Rugby statement said: "In arriving at this decision, the Irish Rugby Football Union and Ulster Rugby acknowledge our responsibility and commitment to the core values of the game: Respect, inclusivity and integrity."



    IRFU/Ulster seem to have missed seeing the word I have highlighted. It means they are deemed by the court to be NOT guilty, i.e. to have NOT done the things they were accused of. This should mean that the state of affairs should be restored to how things were before they were accused, i.e. it never happened.

    Now, I am not so much concerned about this case, as I am about the precedent it sets that it become possible for a mere accusation (founded, or unfounded) to be sufficient for a termination of contract.

    If you want to see how this can be misused, SimonSmith will realise because he lives in the USA, and will have heard about something called "Title IX" where a person can be found guilty by their tertiary educational institution and lose their job/career/contract without even being aware that they have been charged.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/30/s...gan-state.html
    "Never underestimate the power of the Internet to lend unwarranted credibility to the colossally misinformed"
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    Default Re: Are the french more forgiving?

    The two were sacked because of the messages they exchanged where they boasted about the actions they were found not guilty of.
    I wouldn't want them in my rugby club

    People may not have followed this case : before having a strong opinion people should read the details. Even if you decided you believed 100% in their account you wouldn't want to employ them in your rugby club .
    Last edited by crossref; 13-06-18 at 06:06.

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    Default Re: Are the french more forgiving?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian_Cook View Post
    "Two weeks after the players' acquittals, the IRFU and Ulster revoked their contracts with immediate effect following controversy over details of social media and text messages which emerged during the trial.


    An IRFU/Ulster Rugby statement said: "In arriving at this decision, the Irish Rugby Football Union and Ulster Rugby acknowledge our responsibility and commitment to the core values of the game: Respect, inclusivity and integrity."



    IRFU/Ulster seem to have missed seeing the word I have highlighted. It means they are deemed by the court to be NOT guilty, i.e. to have NOT done the things they were accused of. This should mean that the state of affairs should be restored to how things were before they were accused, i.e. it never happened.

    Now, I am not so much concerned about this case, as I am about the precedent it sets that it become possible for a mere accusation (founded, or unfounded) to be sufficient for a termination of contract.

    If you want to see how this can be misused, SimonSmith will realise because he lives in the USA, and will have heard about something called "Title IX" where a person can be found guilty by their tertiary educational institution and lose their job/career/contract without even being aware that they have been charged.



    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/30/s...gan-state.html
    Ian it seems to me that being not found guilty of rape does not mean that the club is prevented from finding other aspects (which did not amount to rape) of their behavior unacceptable.

    I haven't followed the case really closely, but I have read enough to think that what they have themselves admitted to was worthy of sanctions by their clubs. I think it's a false dichotomy to say that just because they were found not guilty of one charge that there should not be consequences for their actions. Oftentimes I would agree with you, but not in this case
    "There is far too much talk about good ball and bad ball. In my opinion, good ball is when you have possession and bad ball is when the opposition have it." - Dick Jeeps

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    Default Re: Are the french more forgiving?

    Quote Originally Posted by crossref View Post
    The two were sacked because of the messages they exchanged where they boasted about the actions they were found not guilty of.
    I wouldn't want them in my rugby club

    People may not have followed this case : before having a strong opinion people should read the details. Even if you decided you believed 100% in their account you wouldn't want to employ them in your rugby club .
    Well, I think that is down to the rugby club and discussions that are had between said club and the individuals concerned. And if your club chooses not to employ them - as is its wont - its none of their business that another club does. You could refuse to play that club i suppose - but Id expect a competition's governing body to deal with the refusing club appropriately as a result.

    The ultimate extreme would be that nobody ever employed these young men ever again and the tax payer would support them throughout the next 60-ish years of their lives. Hardly a positive outcome either. There would be an awful lot of unemployed/unemployable young (and not so young) men and women if (unethical, immoral etc etc) text messages were a reason to never employ anybody.

    didds

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    Default Re: Are the french more forgiving?

    Ultimately the decision rests with the IRFU/Ulster, whatever the court says.

    As I understand it, during their trial some details about their behaviour emerged that, while not illegal, their employer wasn't happy about and deemed met the threshold for sackings.

    IMO it's easy to see why, when your employees are in the public eye, you would want them to uphold certain standards of behaviour at all times.

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    Default Re: Are the french more forgiving?

    Quote Originally Posted by didds View Post
    Well, I think that is down to the rugby club and discussions that are had between said club and the individuals concerned. And if your club chooses not to employ them - as is its wont - its none of their business that another club does. You could refuse to play that club i suppose - but Id expect a competition's governing body to deal with the refusing club appropriately as a result.

    The ultimate extreme would be that nobody ever employed these young men ever again and the tax payer would support them throughout the next 60-ish years of their lives. Hardly a positive outcome either. There would be an awful lot of unemployed/unemployable young (and not so young) men and women if (unethical, immoral etc etc) text messages were a reason to never employ anybody.

    didds
    didds are you talking about this particular case ? Or in general terms . I don't think you should dismiss the behaviour of those two so lightly . Did you follow the case ?

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    Default Re: Are the french more forgiving?

    I've followed it sufficiently to understand that the sackings were not because of any trial whatever the outcome, but of their actions surrounding the circumstances.

    the question asked was whether they should be given employment elsewhere, in effect. I don;t see that "you wouldn't want to employ them in your rugby club ." will necessarily be a universally agreed approach. As clearly the French clubs feel.

    I have posted my thoughts regarding the latter, based on the former. I have no issue with their sackings in this regard - I suspect they were in contravention of contractual clauses regarding their behaviour and its reflection on their employers. I have no issue with their future employment in this regard - as I said I would very surprised if their future employment hadn't already included some serious chats about future conduct. But - that would be up to their new employer, not any of us. I pointed out the alternatives from them being provided with any employment, by whoever.

    I was also speaking generally. I also suggested it could be that while "your" rugby club may not employ them, another club might. What you choose to do about that when "you" come to play the other club is up to you - but I suspect other than moral high ground maybe, probably not universally shared, any realistic action would be toothless.

    I appreciate others' mileage may vary. I am not trying to convert. Merely provide another viewpoint. It doesn;t mean I support any actions that these young men may have or not have done.

    didds

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    Default Re: Are the french more forgiving?

    It's a subject fraught with political & commercial prejudices, When Ched Evans [a not dissimilar footballer case] was eventually acquitted sponsors, gold medal athletes, amongst others all pulled influence over not employing him. Even acquitted associate Clayton McDonald struggled to get employment because of the linked association.

    There are clearly different attitudes towards sexual activity across the world, you've only got to see the different 'Age of consent' that exist around the globe to evidence that, it certainly appears like the french are more accepting than the irish in many ways.

    In general I'm with Didds' comments [thus far]

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