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Thread: Materiality .. The knock on

      
  1. #11

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    Default Re: Materiality .. The knock on

    Quote Originally Posted by CrouchTPEngage View Post
    Er.. Must be slow here but isnt that the case now ?
    If the team knocking on didnt gain an advantage then we ( at some point fairly quickly ) say "Advantage Over for the Knock on!". ?
    Not sure I follow that at all?

    If team A knocks on, then it for team B to gain an advantage. "Advantage over" is only for the non knocking team anyway?

    didds

  2. #12
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    Default Re: Materiality .. The knock on

    I think materiality is often oversold as a universal concept, while practically it's only applicable in certain cases, to allow the game some breathing room and competitiveness in the complexity of a match. Offside, maybe lineout throws/getting a restart over and done with, getting a ball out of a ruck.

    Most other offences are either material by definition, safety-related (hence also material), or simply definitive for rugby. The last group includes things like: knock-ons, forward passes, releasing the ball when tackled, not playing off feet, kicking off 10m with a dropkick... You might be lax if the level of the game is so low you can't hope to maintain minimal standards, but materiality doesn't enter into it.

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    Default Re: Materiality .. The knock on

    Quote Originally Posted by didds View Post
    Not sure I follow that at all?

    If team A knocks on, then it for team B to gain an advantage. "Advantage over" is only for the non knocking team anyway?

    didds
    Yeah, sorry. I'm not great at explaining but I''ll try...

    Rugby is a zero-sum game. If one team gets and advantage then, by definition, their opponents must be disadvantaged.
    So, if team A knocks on and gets and advantage then I blow the whistle.
    Also, if team A knocks on and does NOT gain an advantage then I call "Advantage Over" at some point.
    I do this because the lack of advantage to team A must mean that there is an advantage to team B.

    ( Of course, one could argue that there has been no advantage to either A or B but I can;t think of an example where that would realistically happen )

  4. #14

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    Default Re: Materiality .. The knock on

    Quote Originally Posted by CrouchTPEngage View Post
    I do this because the lack of advantage to team A must mean that there is an advantage to team B.
    7.1 d

    • Advantage:
      • [...]
      • Must be clear and real. A mere opportunity to gain an advantage is not sufficient.

    He trudg’d along unknowing what he sought,
    And whistled as he went, for want of thought.
    The Referee by John Dryden

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    Default Re: Materiality .. The knock on

    Quote Originally Posted by crossref View Post
    In rugby there is one offence that is ALWAYS considered material .. the knock on. No matter how small or how far away from the action it happens , we always blow our whistle

    We take it for granted so much we don't even notice

    QU what would he the impact on the game if WR ruled that immaterial knock on, where the team knocking on gained no advantage from it, should be ignored , play on

    We'd have fewer scrums

    Woukd we also have a faster, more fluid, more exciting game ?

    Or would it be TEOTWAWKT ?
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    Default Re: Materiality .. The knock on

    There are ways round this. If it goes forward a minuscule amount, shout "backwards-play on" and everyone gets on with the game. There might be a grumble or two but apply this to both sides throughout the game and you'll get no complaints.

    Also lots of use of the "off the body" "off the legs" can help minimise stopping for a knock on. Now I know this will get lots of complaints about not enforcing the laws etc, but I'd rather not punish a minuscule knock on than have all the stop/start and scrums from applying the law incredibly strictly.

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    Default Re: Materiality .. The knock on

    Quote Originally Posted by Zebra1922 View Post
    There are ways round this. If it goes forward a minuscule amount, shout "backwards-play on" and everyone gets on with the game. There might be a grumble or two but apply this to both sides throughout the game and you'll get no complaints.

    Also lots of use of the "off the body" "off the legs" can help minimise stopping for a knock on. Now I know this will get lots of complaints about not enforcing the laws etc, but I'd rather not punish a minuscule knock on than have all the stop/start and scrums from applying the law incredibly strictly.
    So there you go .. this is what I am talking about
    I don't condone that approach (I think you will be losing credibility every time you do that... a knock on is just a knock on and the knocking team *have* to lose possession ) but I am (idly) wondering if the game wouldn't be better if the Laws changed in this direction ..

    But it's such a strange idea most people won't pause to even think about it

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    Default Re: Materiality .. The knock on

    Quote Originally Posted by crossref View Post
    So there you go .. this is what I am talking about
    I don't condone that approach (I think you will be losing credibility every time you do that... a knock on is just a knock on and the knocking team *have* to lose possession ) but I am (idly) wondering if the game wouldn't be better if the Laws changed in this direction ..

    But it's such a strange idea most people won't pause to even think about it
    The reason it isn't considered isn't because it's "strange"
    The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane.
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    Default Re: Materiality .. The knock on

    Not so long ago, there was a law trail that knock on resulted in a FK. Not such a strange idea, now that scrums are becoming league like.

    Although unique to union, scrumaging has set itself on the road to extinction. It has become the remnants of a tail, aka the coccyx.

  10. #20
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    Default Re: Materiality .. The knock on

    Quote Originally Posted by Zebra1922 View Post
    There are ways round this. If it goes forward a minuscule amount, shout "backwards-play on" and everyone gets on with the game. There might be a grumble or two but apply this to both sides throughout the game and you'll get no complaints.

    Also lots of use of the "off the body" "off the legs" can help minimise stopping for a knock on. Now I know this will get lots of complaints about not enforcing the laws etc, but I'd rather not punish a minuscule knock on than have all the stop/start and scrums from applying the law incredibly strictly.
    Just making it up to get an easy life? No No and NO again!

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