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Thread: Willie Le Roux sin-binning for deliberate knock-on

      
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    Default Willie Le Roux sin-binning for deliberate knock-on

    Can't see any discussion of this incident from this weekend's Scotland v South Africa match, which sadly doesn't appear on the BBC highlights, hence why no video link.

    Scotland telegraph a big looping pass, Le Roux's eyes light up and he goes for the intercept, but whilst he gets a hand to it, he fails to take it cleanly, leading to a knock-on. After TMO review, Poite decides it's an intentional knock forwards, bins Le Roux and awards Scotland the penalty.

    BBC commentators felt this to be harsh, and the normal law of commentators' opinions means this alone should be enough to vindicate Poite. However, I felt on this occasion the commentators had a point - Le Roux clearly wanted to catch the ball, since he had an uninterrupted run to the Scottish try line in front of him, and was to my mind trying to bat the ball up to recover it. I was therefore expecting a verdict of knock-on, and Scotland scrum.

    Interested to know what the vastly more learned members of this forum made of the decision - was it an odd decision, or do I need to recalibrate what a deliberate knock forwards is?

    Edit - please ignore the mistake in thread title - I know the offence is a deliberate knock forward, not a deliberate knock-on.

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    Default Re: Willie Le Roux sin-binning for deliberate knock-on

    Meh.

    I've seen a 17 year colts winger attempting an intercept deep inside the oppo half not quite complete the action attempted, knock the ball UP (not over anybody's head etc) then fail to control it in a subsequent effort ending up with a knock on being sin binned for his actions. We are talking 70m at least from his own line and a definite score himself if he caught it.

    Nothing surprises me any more.

    didds

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    Default Re: Willie Le Roux sin-binning for deliberate knock-on

    Seems to be standard fare these days if you go for it one-handed. If you succeed, 7 points. If you fail, 10 mins in the bin. Harsh but fair? Esp as he denied the opposition a scoring opportunity...

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    Default Re: Willie Le Roux sin-binning for deliberate knock-on

    It's one of those ones where the referee is correctly following ill thought through and over-prescriptive WR guideline

    WR are intent on eliminating judgement in favour of predicability

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    Default Re: Willie Le Roux sin-binning for deliberate knock-on

    Go for it one handed - you roll the dice.

    Catch it you win, miss it you lose.

    7 pts or a sit down.

    I've had a couple this year: winners and losers.
    It's like a big tide of jam coming towards us, but jam made out of old women......Father Dougal McGuire 1998

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    Default Re: Willie Le Roux sin-binning for deliberate knock-on

    I remember the incident.

    For me, it was a very clear attempt at an interception (IICR Poite initially said he thought he was going for the intercept and changed his mind after the TMO.)

    As others have said, the standard that seems to be being applied is "if it was with one hand, it was intentional" (though I was never told this officially - the best I got was a rule of thumb that if the palm was facing down it was probably intentional) and I've seen many YCs given when I'd have said it was unintentional.

    @davidlandy Harsh but fair? Harsh, yes; fair, no. YCs are for cynical (and therefore, by definition intentional) infringements. Attempted interceptions are not cynical and the passer should not be protected from throwing interceptable passes.
    Last edited by DocY; 20-11-18 at 17:11.

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    Default Re: Willie Le Roux sin-binning for deliberate knock-on

    It seemed harsh to me.

    Why would he want to knock it forward when there was nobody in front of him?

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    Default Re: Willie Le Roux sin-binning for deliberate knock-on

    WR guidance is no longer about whether it was intentional or not . They don't care. It about whether one hand or two was used

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    Default Re: Willie Le Roux sin-binning for deliberate knock-on

    Quote Originally Posted by crossref View Post
    WR guidance is no longer about whether it was intentional or not . They don't care. It about whether one hand or two was used
    In that case, they'd better change the wording of the law then, because at the moment it says

    A player must not intentionally knock the ball forward with hand or arm. Sanction: Penalty.
    It is not an intentional knock-on if, in the act of trying to catch the ball, the player knocks on provided that there was a reasonable expectation that the player could gain possession.

    I still think the South African was hard done by.

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    Default Re: Willie Le Roux sin-binning for deliberate knock-on

    Whilst asking why Willie Le Roux would want to knock forward a ball that had he caught would have led to an easy run in sounds a compelling argument to many, including I note Ugo Monye on his podcast, that simply isn’t the criteria for the referee’s decision.

    We judge whether we believe the player had a realistic chance of gaining possession of the ball and from the footage I absolutely think Roman Poite could conclude that the player here overstretched. We’ve all been in positions where if we’d pulled off some miracle catch/tackle/break we’d have scored/prevented a fabulous try however intention and belief in ourselves isn’t enough. The referee judged that an outstretched arm, thrown in a desperate attempt to intercept a pass was not a credible attempt to catch the ball and given the number of successful one hand interceptions we actually see I don’t make him wrong. Furthermore having concluded that he overstretched, and given the lack of cover behind him a surely a YC is inevitable.

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