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Thread: ARs and scrums

      
  1. #11

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    Default Re: ARs and scrums

    so why do the laws require it if its pointless?

    If eg at scrums the attackers can creep to almost the back feet then they've just bought 5m of space and its easier to get over the gain line ( I also see the tactical advantages of having that extra 5m of space to attack in but this is about attackers not keeping 5m etc for now...)

    didds

  2. #12

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    Default Re: ARs and scrums

    It's more that at a lineout one AR marking the line of touch. So there's only 1 AR left to mark 2 offside lines. The defence has 'more' incentive to reduce the space so the protocol is for the farside AR to mark the defensive side. But ref and AR can still see the attacking side and if they take the p!ss and are miles offside they can still be nabbed!
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  3. #13

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    Default Re: ARs and scrums

    yes - i see that resource issue at lineouts. but it doesn't exist at scrummages, so I'm still struggling to see why one AR cant cover the attacking 5m, and why the attackers' 5m line is not seen as important.

    didds

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    Default Re: ARs and scrums

    Quote Originally Posted by didds View Post
    yes - i see that resource issue at lineouts. but it doesn't exist at scrummages, so I'm still struggling to see why one AR cant cover the attacking 5m, and why the attackers' 5m line is not seen as important.

    didds
    Generally speaking the defenders lie flat whereas the attackers line up in echelon formation, so you only need to ensure that the fly half is back 5m. The defenders might move up early, but the attackers will wait for possession.
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  5. #15
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    Default Re: ARs and scrums

    Quote Originally Posted by didds View Post
    there are two ARs/TJs/blokes with a hanky and a dog.

    why wouldn;t one mark the defnsive 5m, and the other the attacking - with the AR/TJ/BWAHAAD on the side of the pitch most likely to be kicked to marking the defensive ie upfield 5m ?

    didds

    Well:


    AR - They can input

    TJ - no so relevant - can't "officially" input though helpful advice can be useful.

    Blokes with a hanky and a dog - not relevant at all - Once touch flag not of much use at all.


    From the tunnel position you can see the 10 and (along with the referee) keep him honest. Where is the bigger problem going to occur? In the front row.

    The attacking backs want to move onto the the ball preferably with some pace. Therefore it makes little sense for them to close down the space. Of course there will always be a, very rare, exception but I'd worry about the more likely events rather than a 1 in a million chance.

  6. #16

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    Default Re: ARs and scrums

    Quote Originally Posted by Marc Wakeham View Post

    The attacking backs want to move onto the the ball preferably with some pace. Therefore it makes little sense for them to close down the space. Of course there will always be a, very rare, exception but I'd worry about the more likely events rather than a 1 in a million chance.
    That is how I see it too. The other issue is that if you mark 5 metres for the first 3 or 4 scrums but then don't (eg ref asks you to stand in tunnel) the players get upset because all of a sudden they don't have you to lean on.
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  7. #17

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    Default Re: ARs and scrums

    Quote Originally Posted by didds View Post
    yes - i see that resource issue at lineouts. but it doesn't exist at scrummages, so I'm still struggling to see why one AR cant cover the attacking 5m, and why the attackers' 5m line is not seen as important.

    didds
    Ill answer that. Nothing stopping it and it is still used widely and it is still effective.

    Some have this preference that the nearside AR should be in the tunnel all the time. It seems to have become popular from TV refs doing it or it sends a message to the players they are being watched more carefully. I will only AR adjacent to the tunnel if the ref wants me there and wants live scrum calls (usually only when we have radio comms).
    I dont think either really matters - both are effective (and only as effective as the observation skills of the AR)
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    Default Re: ARs and scrums

    Quote Originally Posted by menace View Post
    Ill answer that...
    I think serveral of us have already answered that. Posts 13, 15 and 16 for example.


    Quote Originally Posted by menace View Post
    ... Nothing stopping it and it is still used widely and it is still effective.

    Some have this preference that the nearside AR should be in the tunnel all the time.
    Personally I feel it better to be level with the tunnel able to watch the offside line, rather than the other way around. It seems preferable to give priority to the primary concern (the scrum) and keep and eye on the secondary issue (the attacking side possibly reducing their own attacking space.) But, of course, we are all different.

    Quote Originally Posted by menace View Post
    ...only as effective as the observation skills of the AR

    That goes without saying!

  9. #19

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    Default Re: ARs and scrums

    Quote Originally Posted by Marc Wakeham View Post
    I think serveral of us have already answered that. Posts 13, 15 and 16 for example.




    Personally I feel it better to be level with the tunnel able to watch the offside line, rather than the other way around. It seems preferable to give priority to the primary concern (the scrum) and keep and eye on the secondary issue (the attacking side possibly reducing their own attacking space.) But, of course, we are all different.




    That goes without saying!
    Didds asked so I thought Id have ago to help. Sorry if that wasted your time and seems to have upset you.

    I ve mentioned more than once Im happy with the tunnel position when there is comms. As the AR can be effective when there is an offence. Without comms there's little you can do to assist with the scrum (except foul play maybe) even if it is a primary issue you can do no more at the tunnel than you can 5m back.
    Without comms, marking the attacking 5 has the added value of just being there then the back line can see you and you can keep them honest. You can even talk to the winger to get them to manage their team to be onside.
    I think this is one of those horses for courses things and not going to die in a ditch over it.

    I know I said a very obvious thing about observation skills, it wasn't trying to be condescending, unlike your retort it seems, but it was merely to reinforce that the near side AR positioning isnt the most critical factor to managing the scrum. That obviously went over your head.
    Last edited by menace; 24-11-18 at 02:11.
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  10. #20
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    Default Re: ARs and scrums

    at the community level I ask the two guys I give a flag to to mark the opposition back 5m at every scrum, this covers attack and defence.

    As a AR myself (@Lvl 5 or 6 )I have been asked to stay level with the scrum when it is on my half of the field and add any input 'if it is clear and obvious'.... droping a bind, boring in etc. The attacking team back 5 therefore wasn't marked.

    I suppose it is up to the ref to instruct the ARs what he wants from them?

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