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Thread: Inadvertent touch down

      
  1. #121

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    Default Re: Inadvertent touch down

    Quote Originally Posted by BikingBud View Post
    But he's not picking it up as the first action.
    It was all one movement

    Here is how flish described it in #1

    Quote Originally Posted by Flish View Post
    Kick chase towards saints goal line line, saints defender goes to ground, takes possession and slides into in goal (if this were an attacking player we would be happy that it was grounded and award a try), however within the same movement he jumps to his feet, still in possession, and plays the ball
    .
    Within the same movement

    If a player is picking up the ball you can't analyse the sequence and say . Look , in the middle of that he pressed down on it.

    That's the whole point of 21.2 .. if you are picking it up you are not grounding it

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    Default Re: Inadvertent touch down


  3. #123

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    Default Re: Inadvertent touch down

    Quote Originally Posted by BikingBud View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by crossref View Post
    It was all one movement

    Here is how flish described it in #1



    Within the same movement

    If a player is picking up the ball you can't analyse the sequence and say . Look , in the middle of that he pressed down on it.

    That's the whole point of 21.2 .. if you are picking it up you are not grounding it
    So you agree the ball touched ground while he was holding it. That makes the ball dead.

    If it doesn't, how long do you wait to see if the player picks it up? You are introducing a concept that has no place in the game.
    He trudg’d along unknowing what he sought,
    And whistled as he went, for want of thought.
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  4. #124

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    Default Re: Inadvertent touch down

    Quote Originally Posted by OB.. View Post
    So you agree the ball touched ground while he was holding it. That makes the ball dead.

    If it doesn't, how long do you wait to see if the player picks it up? You are introducing a concept that has no place in the game.
    I say the opposite .. I say it was all one movement to pick it up, and I am following 21.2 : picking it up is not grounding it, but you are introducing an idea that sometimes picking it does count as grounding it, depending on how you pick it up

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    Question Re: Inadvertent touch down

    Quote Originally Posted by crossref View Post
    Yes, but where does it say that a defending player sliding over the line with momentum is a grounding ?

    Because the law book does say that for an attacker, but not for a defender

    Which is precisely why we are having this discussion !
    So if Reinach, Saints scrumhalf had been chasing his own grubber kick and slid over the Wasps goalline. In an identical manner to the incident in the OP. Stood up and (instead of a pop pass) had thrown the ball away and been swamped by teammates celebrating the try. You would have no problem with Luke Pearce awarding the try? As per 21.1 b
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  6. #126

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    Default Re: Inadvertent touch down

    Quote Originally Posted by L'irlandais View Post
    So if Reinach, Saints scrumhalf had been chasing his own grubber kick and slid over the Wasps goalline. In an identical manner to the incident in the OP. Stood up and (instead of a pop pass) had thrown the ball away and been swamped by teammates celebrating the try. You would have no problem with Luke Pearce awarding the try? As per 21.1 b
    I am not sure I have got the point of your question, but I'd say
    - the Law is the same for attackers and defenders.
    - the Law says

    Picking up a ball is not grounding it. A player may pick up the ball in in-goal and ground it elsewhere in in-goal.


    - one - very common, normally coached method of picking up the ball is to, all in one movement, fall on it, gather it, and get to your feet

    - so I say that a player (a defender or an attacker) can pick up the ball in that way, and that is not grounding it.

    - because the Law says : picking the ball up is not grounding it.


    OB.. has made a claim that the fall-gather-get-up technique can only be used in the field of play, but can't be used in the in goal, but I reject that claim, I think you'd need a basis in Law for that.

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    Default Re: Inadvertent touch down

    The point of my question is, while watching the video clip of the incident, imagine it is the Wasps in-goal. Would you award the try to White9, or not?
    And «*the Law being the same for attacking team as for the defenders*» is entirely my point.

    If you fall on the ball on the field of play, and your momentum carried you into the in-goal area, you have scored a try. Unless you very clearly and obviously have prevented the ball from touching the ground (à la «*grounding*»). Perhaps by getting a hand, or your whole arm, underneath the ball.

    Reinach crossed the goal line with the ball pressed to the ground....
    How, in the interests of equity, is that NOT a grounding ?

    And please don’t say «* Because he immediately stands up and plays on.*»
    If his intention was not to concede a scrum five, then he should have gathered the ball on the field of play, stood back up before his momentum carried him over the line. It is as simple ( or complicated if you want to make it) as that.
    Last edited by L'irlandais; 13-01-19 at 10:01.
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  8. #128

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    Default Re: Inadvertent touch down

    Quote Originally Posted by L'irlandais View Post
    The point of my question is, while watching the video clip of the incident, imagine it is the Wasps in-goal. Would you award the try to White9, or not?
    And «*the Law being the same for attacking team as for the defenders*» is entirely my point.

    If you fall on the ball on the field of play, and your momentum carried you into the in-goal area, you have scored a try. Unless you very clearly and obviously have prevented the ball from touching the ground (à la «*grounding*»). Perhaps by getting a hand, or your whole arm, underneath the ball.
    The ball was loose, right, not being carried, but loose on the ground

    The Law says -
    Picking up a ball is not grounding it. A player may pick up the ball in in-goal and ground it elsewhere in in-goal.


    The bold bit is clearly aimed at attackers -- it's quite common for an attacker to want to do that (to get closer to the posts)

    So clearly yes: an attacker can pick up a ball on the ground (using the commonly coached fall/gather technique) and that doesn't count as a grounding.

    because the Law clearly says : picking the ball up is not grounding it!

  9. #129

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    Default Re: Inadvertent touch down

    I don’t see a loose ball. I see the ball pressed against his torso/upper body.
    He doesn’t have to ground the ball with his hands.

    No that law applies to defenders too. The most common application being a full back picking up a ball kicked long and coming to rest in the ingoal. The defender can pick it up and kick to touch without conceding a scrum five. In fact the only reason Reinach did play on was because he knew he had carried the ball back into his own ingoal. Unfortunately the act of sliding over in contact with the ball, grounds the ball, a couple of metres before he regains his feet. The ball is dead, regardless of the intentions of the defender.
    Last edited by L'irlandais; 13-01-19 at 10:01.
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  10. #130

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    Default Re: Inadvertent touch down

    Quote Originally Posted by L'irlandais View Post
    I don’t see a loose ball. I
    i refer to to Phil E's description

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil E View Post
    That's not quite how it happened.
    He dived on the loose ball short of the goal line and slid into in-goal.
    .

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