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Thread: Inadvertent touch down

      
  1. #131

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    Default Re: Inadvertent touch down

    Two meters short of the line the ball was loose. Saints 9 dives on the ball, preventing the attacker from getting hold of it and scoring a momentum try. But by that token he is now in possession of the ball and carried it back over the goal line. By the time he has slid two meters into the in-goal, it is no longer a loose ball. That he immediately regains his feet ( à la «*gathers the ball*») doesn’t magically erase the fact he has inadvertently grounded the damn thing, by virtue of sliding across the goal line in contact with it, à la 21.1 bloody b!

    I genuinely cannot see how any referee could interpret it differently. When you have a rapid succession of infringements, like White knocks on, then Gold knocks on. You go back to the first offense, right?
    Similarly, here, just because the sequence of events, occurs in the blink of eye, that does mean that gathering the ball takes precedence over having grounded the ball. It is simply a question of what order did the events occur in.
    Last edited by L'irlandais; 13-01-19 at 11:01.
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  2. #132

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    Default Re: Inadvertent touch down

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil E View Post
    That's not quite how it happened.
    He dived on the loose ball short of the goal line and slid into in-goal.
    As he slid over the line he was half on his side and the ball was off the ground.
    He then turned onto his front to get to his feet, and in doing so he clearly placed the ball onto the ground (still in his possession).
    At that point the ball was dead.
    This description negates the need for 14 pages of discussion.
    Scrum.
    When you are dead, you don't know that you are dead. It is difficult only for the others.
    It's the same when you are stupid.

  3. #133

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    Default Re: Inadvertent touch down

    Except Phil E’s post was #90. Already page 10 of a fairly typical RRF discussion these days.

    A picture tells a thousand words. I honestly thought post #50 had killed off any possible counter argument.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ian_Cook View Post
    White 9 went to ground to gather the ball to take possession of it (Law 13) about 2m into the FoP.

    He slid across the ground into in-goal while holding the ball, and with the ball clearly in contact with the ground from the time he fell on it until he crossed the chalk.

    Therefore, the ball was grounded at that point, and was dead - peep scrum 5, Gold ball.



    Look at the photograph above

    1. Would you award a try if White 9 was an attacking player sliding like that into his opponent's in-goal? Of course you would!

    2. If White 9 subsequently stood up with the ball and ran around under the posts, would you award the try under the posts? Of course you wouldn't; you would award it where the ball was first grounded.
    The ball is clearly no longer a loose ball. Nor is the ball off the ground.

    If that was Wasps ingoal and you did not award the try, then you would probably not be refereeing Premiership rugby for much longer.

    Match referee: Is there any reason I may not award the try?
    TMO: No try, the attacking White 9 clearly only intended to gather the ball.
    Premiership Rugby: WTF?

    In short, If it is a grounding for an attacking player, then it IS a grounding for a defending player too. I tent doesn’t come into it. The attacking player grounds the ball, even if his intent was to pick it up and run closer to the posts. Tough, ball was grounded.

    How can you be equitable and say, the defender intended to run the ball out of his in goal?!
    Last edited by L'irlandais; 13-01-19 at 11:01.
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  4. #134

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    Default Re: Inadvertent touch down

    If an attacking player dives on a ball to ground it, it's a try.

    But if an attacking player falls on to a loose ball in order to pick it up, and runs to score under the posts , it's a try under the posts

    Because picking the ball up is not grounding it ... It's not a matter of interpretation, there is a special law saying precisely that !.

  5. #135

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    Thumbs down Re: Inadvertent touch down

    Mate, if you are saying Law 21.1 b doesn’t apply, I am leaving it there.
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  6. #136

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    Default Re: Inadvertent touch down

    Quote Originally Posted by L'irlandais View Post
    Mate, if you are saying Law 21.1 b doesn’t apply, I am leaving it there.
    Mate, if you are saying 21.2 doesn't apply, I am leaving it there !



    The reality is: both apply and 21.2 is an exception to 21.1

  7. #137

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    Default Re: Inadvertent touch down

    Quote Originally Posted by crossref View Post
    Mate, if you are saying 21.2 doesn't apply, I am leaving it there !



    The reality is: both apply and 21.2 is an exception to 21.1
    Except it’s first «*infringement*» (yes I know he’s not infringing.).
    He 21.1b’d before he ever got the chance to 21.2
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  8. #138

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    Default Re: Inadvertent touch down

    but that's always the case -- 21.2 says : when you 21.1 it, in the course of picking it up (as you often will) .. well, that doesn't count.

    that's the point of 21.2, otherwise we wouldn't need it

  9. #139

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    Default Re: Inadvertent touch down

    21.2 is needed for when a defending fullback goes into his ingoal to pick up a ball kicked thru’
    He is entitled to pick it up and kick the ball clear. His touching the ball on the gound in his ingoal must not be interpreted as touching down the ball to make it dead.

    So no, you have missed the point of 21.2 entirely. And if the full back dived on the ball to gather it, I would whistle for grounding the ball. Rather than simply picking it up with his hands. Picking the ball up and going to ground to gather the ball are not the same in the LoTG.
    Last edited by L'irlandais; 13-01-19 at 12:01.
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  10. #140

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    Default Re: Inadvertent touch down

    Quote Originally Posted by L'irlandais View Post
    21.2 is needed for when a defending fullback goes into his ingoal to pick up a ball kicked thru’
    He is entitled to pick it up and kick the ball clear. His touching the ball on the gound in his ingoal must not be interpreted as touching down the ball to make it dead.

    So no, you have missed the point of 21.2 entirely..
    Well now you are back to proposing that the Law applies only to defenders ... But no, it also applies to attackers .. clearly so as it is most likely to be an attacker who wants to pick it up and put it down again in a different place

    Of course in this instance it is a defender picking it up



    Quote Originally Posted by L'irlandais View Post
    And if the full back dived on the ball to gather it, I would whistle for grounding the ball. Rather than simply picking it up with his hands. Picking the ball up and going to ground to gather the ball are not the same in the LoTG.
    This is the same claim that OB made ... Falling on the ball doesnt count as picking it up

    Well, I never heard that before , I think you just made that up.

    Falling on a ball is actually the normal way to pick it up, especially if it's moving , or if any opponents are near

    But that would be the question that I would ask WR , if I was going to ask them a question .. can you pick it up by falling on it. I am pretty confident they would say yes.

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