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Thread: Inadvertent touch down

      
  1. #71

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    Default Re: Inadvertent touch down

    Quote Originally Posted by Pinky View Post
    Had Saints offloads worked and they ran up the pitch and scored, the would probably have been a bit peeved to have been brought back for the scrum! A senior referee said intend was relevant as in that case it was obvious Saints wanted to play on. Had they wanted the grounding, the player would not have popped it up, and just made clear it was grounded.
    I still don't understand how anyone can infer that intent is required, nor why it should be considered a good idea. It is a judgement call, and I prefer where possible to stick to factual decisions..
    He trudg’d along unknowing what he sought,
    And whistled as he went, for want of thought.
    The Referee by John Dryden

  2. #72

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    Default Re: Inadvertent touch down

    Why would you force the ref to make the decision here? it was clear that Saints did not consider the ball grounded and the ref went along with this and allowed play on. What if he had blown the whistle and had the TMO check and they decided the ball had not touched the ground? The restart then would have been defending scrum 5. Now this is different for an attacking team where the fact of grounding decides a try and subterfuge (eg like Goneva for Newcastle touching down on his boot and then trying to run up the park instead of a 22DO)

    My question would be if Saints chose to play on, why would the ref blow the whistle? I would distinguish a situation where a defender was taken into in goal by and attacker and effectively forced to ground the ball for a 5m attacking scrum, but this was an opportunity to play on from something that was not an infringement, so why not allow it?

  3. #73
    Rugby Club Member Rich_NL's Avatar

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    Default Re: Inadvertent touch down

    For a grass roots ref, at least, I think this is a good illustration of why you blow up early and give less breathing room for in-goal decisions. The stakes and emotions are high, and reactions to quick clear decisions will be a lot less heated than those where leeway is given and the advantage swings the other way.

  4. #74

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    Default Re: Inadvertent touch down

    ... which I think in an extended debate is probably my own personal bugbear of - WADR to them for doing it of course! - grass roots coaches-as-refs/refs playing too MUCH advantage. where they allow play to continue when there is clearly no advantage to be had - Ive even seen knockons that are retrieved playing on a few phases until eventually the scrum is blown half a pitch away to the team without the ball (ie blue knock on and regather, no red involvement etc).

    It shows a lack of understanding of the game, and the following of some sort of mantra where "playing advantage is good", without any consideration of what advantage _is_

    didds

  5. #75

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    Default Re: Inadvertent touch down

    Quote Originally Posted by didds View Post
    ... which I think in an extended debate is probably my own personal bugbear of - WADR to them for doing it of course! - grass roots coaches-as-refs/refs playing too MUCH advantage. where they allow play to continue when there is clearly no advantage to be had - Ive even seen knockons that are retrieved playing on a few phases until eventually the scrum is blown half a pitch away to the team without the ball (ie blue knock on and regather, no red involvement etc).

    It shows a lack of understanding of the game, and the following of some sort of mantra where "playing advantage is good", without any consideration of what advantage _is_

    didds
    I completely agree, and observe the same

  6. #76
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    Default Re: Inadvertent touch down

    Pinky - for exactly the same reason as if the winger's foot accidentally landed on the touch line.
    See is in touch whether she intended to be or not.

  7. #77

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    Default Re: Inadvertent touch down

    Quote Originally Posted by Camquin View Post
    Pinky - for exactly the same reason as if the winger's foot accidentally landed on the touch line.
    See is in touch whether she intended to be or not.
    Or it might not be like touch. It might be disregarded like for all these other examples of things done inadvertently

    http://www.rugbyrefs.com/showthread....dvertent-stuff

  8. #78

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    Default Re: Inadvertent touch down

    Quote Originally Posted by Pinky View Post
    Why would you force the ref to make the decision here?
    I am requiring the referee to make a call on a question of fact. That is normal. Do you require anything else when the winger inadvertently treads on the touchline?
    it was clear that Saints did not consider the ball grounded
    Why do you think it is justified to infer a need for intention?
    and the ref went along with this and allowed play on.
    I would have regarded that as an error.
    What if he had blown the whistle and had the TMO check and they decided the ball had not touched the ground?
    If he was in any doubt, he could have played on and later asked the TMO to review it. (We don't have TMOs at the lower levels. Why complicate matters by importing this murky concept of intent?)

    My question would be if Saints chose to play on, why would the ref blow the whistle
    Because in his view the ball had actually been grounded in accordance with the law and therefore made dead.
    I would distinguish a situation where a defender was taken into in goal by and attacker and effectively forced to ground the ball for a 5m attacking scrum, but this was an opportunity to play on from something that was not an infringement, so why not allow it?
    Why should the defence have this get-out clause? Is it not good attacking play to cause the defender to touch down?

    I don't think that inferring a need for intent in this situation is either necessary or valuable. I will not be applying it unless there is a formal directive. (I very much doubt if it will occur in any of my games anyway.)
    He trudg’d along unknowing what he sought,
    And whistled as he went, for want of thought.
    The Referee by John Dryden

  9. #79

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    Default Re: Inadvertent touch down

    The saints defender went to ground to gather a loose ball, and pick it up
    .
    Picking the ball up is not touching it down. By Law

  10. #80

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    Default Re: Inadvertent touch down

    Quote Originally Posted by crossref View Post
    The saints defender went to ground to gather a loose ball, and pick it up
    .
    Picking the ball up is not touching it down. By Law
    So why are we talking about an "inadvertent touchdown" and raising the matter of intent?
    Did he simply pick it up? If so there is no problem.
    Did he fall on it in in-goal or slide on it into in-goal and then pick it up? If so,too late. He had grounded it first.
    He trudg’d along unknowing what he sought,
    And whistled as he went, for want of thought.
    The Referee by John Dryden

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