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Thread: Law Change Proposal - Elminate accidental knock-ons

      
  1. #21
    Rugby Club Member Rich_NL's Avatar

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    Default Re: Law Change Proposal - Elminate accidental knock-ons

    Quote Originally Posted by crossref View Post
    We already have to judge whether knock ons are deliberate or not, because deliberate ones are a PK (and would remain so )
    True, but both lead to a sanction now, so we have guidelines whether someone only gets a scrum against, or when it's C&O killing the play and deserves a penalty (hand up/hand down, is there a line break, etc).

    If there's no sanction, you have to decide whether that fumbled catch that bobbles the ball past the defender, gets gathered/chipped on and scores is a try, or was the fumble a ploy and worthy of a penalty? Did the ball come loose forward in the tackle because of the strength of the tackle, or because the support player can run onto the ball and gather it? Do we assume that any knock-on in a 2-on-1 attacker situation is intentional?

    I think that the amount of ill-will towards referees (talking about only the ones who are honestly doing their best to make fair calls) will skyrocket if only a quarter of knock-ons could be seen by one-eyed coaches and fans as controversial, and any guidelines will add a layer of obfuscation for the lay spectator who finds on-field decisions baffling enough already.

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    Default Re: Law Change Proposal - Elminate accidental knock-ons

    A couple of weekends ago, my son's u14 team played a real mis-match of a game and were soon 30+ points up. The referee was from our club and decided to 'go easy' on the losing team and ignored a few knock-ons. My son's coach and I have an interesting chat about this in the bar afterwards. My son's coach was adamant that our team were not being "rewarded for the effort that they were putting into their line speed". He happily removed our most potent try scorer to even things up. He has previously started to take players off and not replace them, to make the game closer. But his basic point is that skill errors often happen because of good defensive pressure. Having thought about this a lot, I really don't like the idea of doing away with accidental knock-ons.

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    Default Re: Law Change Proposal - Elminate accidental knock-ons

    Dan_A - I entirely see your coach's point... but as well as removing the points scorer he could have also (as he was obviously inclined to "evening up" the game) to move his defensive line around which may have reduced some of the pressure? Also providing some live practice for players' secondary positions etc ?

    Merely saying this as a debating point not necessarily something I expect you to take back to him :-)

    didds

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    Default Re: Law Change Proposal - Elminate accidental knock-ons

    Quote Originally Posted by didds View Post
    Dan_A - I entirely see your coach's point... but as well as removing the points scorer he could have also (as he was obviously inclined to "evening up" the game) to move his defensive line around which may have reduced some of the pressure? Also providing some live practice for players' secondary positions etc ?

    Merely saying this as a debating point not necessarily something I expect you to take back to him :-)

    didds
    He has previously played people out of position. So second rowers are in the centres or wingers moved to flanker. To be fair, he's a v good coach and is 100% more interested in developing the players than piling up the points and victories. In the end our opposition finished that game with a prolonged period of pressure and walked off feeling that they had achieved some level of parity, despite the scoreline.

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    Default Re: Law Change Proposal - Elminate accidental knock-ons

    sounds to me as if he certainly has his priorities right (IMO! FWTW!)

    cheers

    didds

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    Default Re: Law Change Proposal - Elminate accidental knock-ons

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan_A View Post
    But his basic point is that skill errors often happen because of good defensive pressure.
    Undoubtably. But the point is that a player would rather catch the ball than knock it on. Having knocked it on, is the pressure/inconvenience/disruption that causes sufficient punishment?
    I, for one, like Roman numerals

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    Default Re: Law Change Proposal - Elminate accidental knock-ons

    Depends if it causes pressure/inconvenience/disruption (for which we have the advantage rule) or an advantage. A significant reason that a player would prefer to catch a ball is that a knock on leads to a scrum against.

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    Default Re: Law Change Proposal - Elminate accidental knock-ons

    So to fix the perceived scrum and consequential pk "problem" the idea is to give the less skilled players "a break"? Seems a rediculous idea to me...a case of the 'tail wagging the dog' solution.
    Why complicate one of the easiest parts of the game to adjudicate???

    (I thought the ball was oblong for a reason too
    ..so that it's not too easy??? But giving kiddies some latitude while they learn the skill is another thing)
    Tell em it's Law 23 and smile

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    Default Re: Law Change Proposal - Elminate accidental knock-ons

    Maybe the thought process should be to trial it with a view to finding "evidence" to discard the idea completely?

    CF choose own numbers in the lineout?

    didds

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    Player or Coach ChrisR's Avatar

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    Default Re: Law Change Proposal - Elminate accidental knock-ons

    From the OP: In a bid to increase "ball-in-play" time and reduce the frequency of scrums ( and the consequential number of reset-scrums, scrum-penalties ) there has been some discussion recently about an interesting law-change to allow accidental knock-ons.

    So, fix the scrum issues.

    Scrums are an integral part of the game and produce set piece opportunities that would otherwise not occur.

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