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Thread: Law Change Proposal - Elminate accidental knock-ons

      
  1. #31

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    Default Re: Law Change Proposal - Elminate accidental knock-ons

    Agree with the consensus on here.

    IIRC there used to be bit the knock-on only being penalised if that team gained an advantage, but like Crossref I'm not about to trawl through old law books.

    It has always struck me as a little ridiculous that a player in this scenario who fumbles the ball while under no pressure is subject to a scrum sanction. Blue clearing kick downfield from deep within their own half, Red field the ball but fumble it slightly forward but there are no But players within 15m. Should we really penalise Red? It has always struck me as unfair.
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  2. #32

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    Default Re: Law Change Proposal - Elminate accidental knock-ons

    Quote Originally Posted by beckett50 View Post
    IIRC there used to be bit the knock-on only being penalised if that team gained an advantage, but like Crossref I'm not about to trawl through old law books.
    1871
    Knocking on i e deliberately hitting the ball with the hand and Throwing Forward ie throwing the ball in the direction of the opponents' goal line are not lawful.

    In 1883 the word "deliberately" was removed.

    In 1896 the Advantage Law was brought in and it was made clear that this applied to the opponents gaining advantage from a knock-on.

    1949
    A knock-on occurs when the ball, after striking the hand or arm of a player, travels in the direction of his opponents' dead ball line.

    That was when I started playing and I do not remember a law change that a knock-on did not count unless the player's own side gained an advantage.
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  3. #33

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    Default Re: Law Change Proposal - Elminate accidental knock-ons

    Quote Originally Posted by beckett50 View Post
    Agree with the consensus on here.

    IIRC there used to be bit the knock-on only being penalised if that team gained an advantage, but like Crossref I'm not about to trawl through old law books.

    It has always struck me as a little ridiculous that a player in this scenario who fumbles the ball while under no pressure is subject to a scrum sanction. Blue clearing kick downfield from deep within their own half, Red field the ball but fumble it slightly forward but there are no But players within 15m. Should we really penalise Red? It has always struck me as unfair.
    If you can't catch when under no pressure, why should you get away with it?
    Unfair how? Catching is one of the most basic skills in the game.
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  4. #34

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    Default Re: Law Change Proposal - Elminate accidental knock-ons

    Rugby is a game that deliberately involves luck .. that's what the oval ball is for , to create random bounces

    The knock on is similar , avoiding a knock on is mostly skill, but there is also some chance in there

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    Default Re: Law Change Proposal - Elminate accidental knock-ons

    Catching a kick clean from the air involves luck?

    *draws up chair* Do tell.
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    Default Re: Law Change Proposal - Elminate accidental knock-ons

    Quote Originally Posted by crossref View Post
    Rugby is a game that deliberately involves luck .. that's what the oval ball is for , to create random bounces
    Hardly! It is due to the origins of the ball - a pig's bladder, which was covered in leather to make it last longer.

    Other nineteenth century football-type games included a cheese shaped ball at Harrow.

    Quote Originally Posted by SimonSmith View Post
    Catching a kick clean from the air involves luck?
    A bouncing or rolling ball is more likely to cause a knock-on.
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    And whistled as he went, for want of thought.
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    Default Re: Law Change Proposal - Elminate accidental knock-ons

    Quote Originally Posted by OB.. View Post
    Hardly! It is due to the origins of the ball - a pig's bladder, which was covered in leather to make it last longer.
    It's oval to make it unpredictable, so that you can't dribble it
    Soccer balls were made the same way, and have always been as spherical as possible to make them predictable in the air and on the ground

  8. #38

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    Default Re: Law Change Proposal - Elminate accidental knock-ons

    Now, now crossref. Given that OB.. is something of our resident historian, it’s a little silly to contradict him on a point like this. A quick look online supports this :
    Association football was formed in 1863. In the early 18 hundreds there were a wide variety of codes being played in English Public schools. Most of these allowed some form of catching, kicking and handling of the plum shaped pig’s bladder. This was far rounder than a modern rugby ball, but with distinct flattened ends, and as OB.. said «*this early shape was determined by the use of pigs' bladders inside.
    So the plum shape of the ball lent itself to handling. It is only later on that the soccer boys eliminated that pesky unpredictable bounce. So it appears, it was not a choice between either a round ball or an oval one, but rather a 1863 thought that this oval ball doesn’t suit our code, what shall we do abou’ it.

    The use of a pig’s bladder goes back to Antiquity worldwide. The round ball, as mentioned above, is a much more recent evolution.
    Last edited by L'irlandais; 02-02-19 at 11:02.
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    Default Re: Law Change Proposal - Elminate accidental knock-ons

    Quote Originally Posted by crossref View Post
    It's oval to make it unpredictable, so that you can't dribble it.
    Dribbling used to be an integral part of rugby tactics.

    Feet, Scotland Feet!: The Book of Scottish Rugby (edited by Derek Douglas, 1991)
    The Manual of Rugby Union Football (RFU, 1952) has a section on Dribbling under Basic Skills.
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    Default Re: Law Change Proposal - Elminate accidental knock-ons

    I think we end up at the same result .. soccer balls are designed so as to make them as predictable as possible , in the air and on the ground . Rugby balls are designed to be unpredictable, especially when bouncing

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