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Thread: Quiz #4 .. quick tapping

      
  1. #11
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    Default Re: Quiz #4 .. quick tapping

    This is where the re-write makes things awkward.

    We had

    Law 21.4 PENALTY AND FREE KICK OPTIONS AND REQUIREMENTS
    2017

    Sanction: Unless otherwise stated in Law any infringement by the kicker’s team results in a scrum at the mark. The opposing team throw in the ball.

    So, the law was clear this would result in a scrum to the non-kicking team.

    2018 is silent on this.

    On one hand, applying the "no change" mantra. We can conclude that it is still a scrum with the opposing team throwing in.

    HOWEVER!

    The re-write also "clarified" existing practice. And that was to take the kick again (in 99.99% of cases).

    So we have a quandry - All of the re-write committee's making and not picked up by WR.

    Sorry crossref, but you can't say: "I hope you made him take it again , as per the Laws" Once again you are making claims of the laws that are just not true! didds corrects you well! Indeed you own subsequent post indicate that the claim is false.

    What would I do in the Scenario?

    If the Blue players being in front of the kick are not material I'l play on as per convention that as long as they retire and do not interfere (affect play) play on. If we look at 2018 law 12.18 (kick offs and restarts). After all, a PK is a form of restart, If they do then it is a scrum.

    So "C" is my answer.
    Last edited by Marc Wakeham; 01-02-19 at 09:02.

  2. #12

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    Default Re: Quiz #4 .. quick tapping

    If offside players interfere with play the sanction is a PK, not a scrum.

    For the scenario you have chosen C , they must actually retire

    What is your sanction if they don't retire .. a PK ?
    That's a gotcha PK given its for an offence that is not in the Law Book
    Last edited by crossref; 01-02-19 at 10:02.

  3. #13
    Rugby Club Member Rich_NL's Avatar

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    Default Re: Quiz #4 .. quick tapping

    Quote Originally Posted by Marc Wakeham View Post
    If the Blue players being in front of the kick are not material I'l play on as per convention that as long as they retire and do not interfere (affect play) play on. If we look at 2018 law 12.18 (kick offs and restarts). After all, a PK is a form of restart, If they do then it is a scrum.
    No, it isn't - from the principle at the top of law 12:
    "Kick-offs are used to start each half of the match or period of extra-time. Restart kicks resume play after a score or touch-down."

    In a sense of course they do restart the game, but law 12 is explicit in its application.

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    Default Re: Quiz #4 .. quick tapping

    Quote Originally Posted by crossref View Post
    If offside players interfere with play the sanction is a PK, not a scrum.

    For the scenario you have chosen C , they must actually retire

    What is your sanction if they don't retire .. a PK ?
    That's a gotcha PK given its for an offence that is not in the Law Book


    If you read my answer I have already answered your question.

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    Default Re: Quiz #4 .. quick tapping

    Quote Originally Posted by Rich_NL View Post
    No, it isn't - from the principle at the top of law 12:
    "Kick-offs are used to start each half of the match or period of extra-time. Restart kicks resume play after a score or touch-down."

    In a sense of course they do restart the game, but law 12 is explicit in its application.
    It's a form of restart as you acknowledge. There is a logic to treating a quick tapped penalty the same as a quick 22 tap and go.

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    Default Re: Quiz #4 .. quick tapping

    Quote Originally Posted by Marc Wakeham View Post
    This is where the re-write makes things awkward.

    We had

    Law 21.4 PENALTY AND FREE KICK OPTIONS AND REQUIREMENTS
    2017

    Sanction: Unless otherwise stated in Law any infringement by the kicker’s team results in a scrum at the mark. The opposing team throw in the ball.

    So, the law was clear this would result in a scrum to the non-kicking team.

    2018 is silent on this.

    On one hand, applying the "no change" mantra. We can conclude that it is still a scrum with the opposing team throwing in.

    HOWEVER!

    The re-write also "clarified" existing practice. And that was to take the kick again (in 99.99% of cases).

    So we have a quandry - All of the re-write committee's making and not picked up by WR.

    Sorry crossref, but you can't say: "I hope you made him take it again , as per the Laws" Once again you are making claims of the laws that are just not true! didds corrects you well! Indeed you own subsequent post indicate that the claim is false.

    What would I do in the Scenario?

    If the Blue players being in front of the kick are not material I'l play on as per convention that as long as they retire and do not interfere (affect play) play on. If we look at 2018 law 12.18 (kick offs and restarts). After all, a PK is a form of restart, If they do then it is a scrum.

    So "C" is my answer.
    Quote Originally Posted by crossref View Post
    If offside players interfere with play the sanction is a PK, not a scrum.

    For the scenario you have chosen C , they must actually retire

    What is your sanction if they don't retire .. a PK ?
    That's a gotcha PK given its for an offence that is not in the Law Book
    Firstly the law re-write is IMO an effin mess and has created more confusion and contradictions than it has fixed.

    In this scenario under the new rewrite it can be easily argued too that immediately after the tap we have open play.
    "Open play: The period after a kick-off, restart kick, free-kick, penalty or set piece and before the next phase, or the period between phases of play, excluding when the ball is dead.".

    So if there are team mates in front of the quick tap then they are now offside in open play and subject to law 10.
    That law is pretty clear that if they dont interfere then they are fine....if they interfere with play (etc etc etc) then they are liablw for PK (but like anything...manage it so it's not a gotcha).
    Last edited by menace; 01-02-19 at 13:02.
    Tell em it's Law 23 and smile

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    Default Re: Quiz #4 .. quick tapping

    Marc you have got yourself into a right old muddle on this one !

  8. #18
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    Default Re: Quiz #4 .. quick tapping

    Quote Originally Posted by Marc Wakeham View Post
    It's a form of restart as you acknowledge. There is a logic to treating a quick tapped penalty the same as a quick 22 tap and go.
    I agree there is a logic to it, I'd just say that the lawmakers in their wisdom explicitly separate the laws for a DO. There's a logic to offside in open play and to retaking the kick too!

  9. #19
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    Default Re: Quiz #4 .. quick tapping

    Quote Originally Posted by crossref View Post
    Marc you have got yourself into a right old muddle on this one !

    We disagree again. Still I'm not quoting an imaginary law book to justify my views.

  10. #20

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    Default Re: Quiz #4 .. quick tapping

    Quote Originally Posted by Marc Wakeham View Post
    This is where the re-write makes things awkward.

    We had

    Law 21.4 PENALTY AND FREE KICK OPTIONS AND REQUIREMENTS
    2017

    Sanction: Unless otherwise stated in Law any infringement by the kicker’s team results in a scrum at the mark. The opposing team throw in the ball.

    So, the law was clear this would result in a scrum to the non-kicking team.

    2018 is silent on this.

    On one hand, applying the "no change" mantra. We can conclude that it is still a scrum with the opposing team throwing in.

    HOWEVER!

    The re-write also "clarified" existing practice. And that was to take the kick again (in 99.99% of cases).

    So we have a quandry - All of the re-write committee's making and not picked up by WR.

    Sorry crossref, but you can't say: "I hope you made him take it again , as per the Laws" Once again you are making claims of the laws that are just not true! didds corrects you well! Indeed you own subsequent post indicate that the claim is false.

    What would I do in the Scenario?

    If the Blue players being in front of the kick are not material I'l play on as per convention that as long as they retire and do not interfere (affect play) play on. If we look at 2018 law 12.18 (kick offs and restarts). After all, a PK is a form of restart, If they do then it is a scrum.

    So "C" is my answer.
    You are forgetting 21.4.J (2017)

    KICK TAKEN QUICKLY If the PK or FK is taken so quickly that players of the kickers team are still in front of the ball, they are not penalized for being offside. They must not stop retiring until they are onside...

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