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Thread: 1 AR and 1 TJ?

      
  1. #51

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    Default Re: 1 AR and 1 TJ?

    Quote Originally Posted by crossref View Post
    Now, now .. you know me pretty well, you know that i am willing to take on received wisdom when I want to !

    I don't really have strong opinions about ARs in grassroot rugby.

    I do know that if we wanted them ... we would need roughly 3x as many people as we have now ... I think that's the real problem , rather than how best to deploy the tiny numbers of unappointed refs we have some weeks
    I think the issue has been morphed into a debate that is a little off the points being made.
    Even here in the penal colony we don't have the refs to appoint ARs to every game - we all know the world over that is the same problem for everyone.
    What the AR discussion was about is on those rare occasions where you actually might have a ref standing idle with no appointment it seems logical to throw them onto a line (even if he was the only AR) - rather than just letting them stick their thumb up...(you now the rest)?
    Putting an idle ref to AR work during the season is a good way to develop their AR skills for when they are needed most - FINALS!
    So the numbers of refs is really moot to the argument.

    In my parts we "actively encourage" refs during the season to hang about and run as AR before/after they've done their game. Some do...many don't. This is both at the junior and senior levels. When there is excess refs (such as finals time) the referees that didn't get a run in the centre - get appointed as AR (some decline - many don't. many just want to least be part of the finals) - and sometime they are country games (2-3 hrs travel) where only 1 AR is available to send (also acts as the reserve referee).
    So rather than the "we just don't" - we have a system of trying to utilise what we can where we can...and to bridge that back to the OP - not get too hung up about law semantics.

    If there is any England "appointments guys" on here it would be interesting to know if there is a "we just don't" mentality or not when there is excess refs and what drives that? (ie it's just too difficulttime consuming, clubs/unions will not allow just 1 AR, refs hate ARing so refuse to do it, couldn't be @rsed asking the refs, ARing is for peasants).
    Tell em it's Law 23 and smile

  2. #52

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    Default Re: 1 AR and 1 TJ?

    Quote Originally Posted by menace View Post
    What the AR discussion was about is on those rare occasions where you actually might have a ref standing idle with no appointment it seems logical to throw them onto a line (even if he was the only AR) - rather than just letting them stick their thumb up...(you now the rest)?
    but its even more noteworthy than that. If there are 2 ARs appointed and one sprains her/his ankle and can't continue, the other loses her/his 'flagging rights'. THAT'S the bit I don't get
    Last edited by Dickie E; 4 Days Ago at 03:02.
    I, for one, like Roman numerals

  3. #53

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    Default Re: 1 AR and 1 TJ?

    Quote Originally Posted by menace View Post
    .

    If there is any England "appointments guys" on here it would be interesting to know if there is a "we just don't" mentality or not when there is excess refs and what drives that? (ie it's just too difficulttime consuming, clubs/unions will not allow just 1 AR, refs hate ARing so refuse to do it, couldn't be @rsed asking the refs, ARing is for peasants).
    We have tiny numbers of unappointed refs.

    Rather than one game in a hundred at random getting ARs we think it's more effective for two additional games to get a referee coach, so we encourage unappointed refs to do that .. ideally it helps both refs develop

  4. #54

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    Default Re: 1 AR and 1 TJ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dickie E View Post
    but its even more noteworthy than that. If there are 2 ARs appointed and one sprains her/his ankle and can't continue, the other loses her/his 'flagging rights'. THAT'S the bit I don't get
    AFAIK there is no policy governing that scenario in England . I never heard of one anyway.

    Is there a policy in Australia?

    The ref is in charge of the AR(s) . The ref tells them what their duties are so I think it would be up to the ref to use the one AR as he/she thinks fit.
    I reckon that's likely the same in Australia

    For me I would want the one AR to do MORE work, not less !

    Tbh I would be rather surprised if any ref really told an colleague that he was reduced to TJ duties
    Last edited by crossref; 4 Days Ago at 07:02.

  5. #55
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    Default Re: 1 AR and 1 TJ?

    Quote Originally Posted by crossref View Post
    Now, now .. you know me pretty well, you know that i am willing to take on received wisdom when I want to !
    Therein lies a big problem

    Quote Originally Posted by crossref View Post



    I do know that if we wanted them ... we would need roughly 3x as many people as we have now ... I think that's the real problem , rather than how best to deploy the tiny numbers of unappointed refs we have some weeks
    The point is not about having a policy of teams of three for every game in the country - However nice that might be. And yes the Aussie system of scheduling makes it easier with numbers. - the point here is about WHEN A SPARE REF IS AVAILABLE. YOu seem to want him to twiddle his thumbs when he could be contributing. To some of us that is simple crazy.

  6. #56

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    Default Re: 1 AR and 1 TJ?

    Quote Originally Posted by crossref View Post
    In comparison I am always astonished when the Aussie refs explain that over there the clock doesn't stop for injuries, as there is always a fixed time schedule and the next match waiting to go on.

    Seems to me it would cause endless fake injury .. but in Australia everyone accepts it and it seems to work for those involved, presumably
    its been over 25 years since I played there last but back in 1993 and 1988 (when I played in Sydney first time around) it did just work. I can only presume iy either never ever strikes anyone to do it, or maybe everybody in the lower grades (where the time IS important in this manner) understands its their own game time that eventually is being wasted. At 4th and 3rd grades you "only" got 2 x 30 minutes anyway, and in reality its not quite that by the time you have half time and grade/match turnaround.

    Also, for most grades there are a plethora of subs available due to the nature of the back-to-back games so for walking injuries the injured player gets off the pitch and somebody else comes on. So if its a fake injury back then you might lose the rest of your game (no rolling subs etc, no blood bins, no HIAs etc etc - it was standard substitution) or your team plays a man down until you get back on again.

    I was once asked to take a knee by my skipper, but that was because he bwanted time to sort something out rather than kill the clock.


    Ist grade has no time pressure on it ie no match to follow, so maybe the clock does get stopped for injuries then?

    didds

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    Default Re: 1 AR and 1 TJ?

    Quote Originally Posted by crossref View Post
    Now, now .. you know me pretty well, you know that i am willing to take on received wisdom when I want to !
    Therein lies a big problem!

    Quote Originally Posted by crossref View Post



    I do know that if we wanted them ... we would need roughly 3x as many people as we have now ... I think that's the real problem , rather than how best to deploy the tiny numbers of unappointed refs we have some weeks
    The point is not about having a policy of teams of three for every game in the country - However nice that might be. And yes the Aussie system of scheduling makes it easier with numbers. - the point here is about WHEN A SPARE REF IS AVAILABLE. YOu seem to want him to twiddle his thumbs when he could be contributing. To some of us that is simple crazy.



    IF a ref IS FREE let him assist the guy in the middle.

    IF as IS NOT FREE, such is life.


    What is difficult to take in?
    Last edited by Marc Wakeham; 4 Days Ago at 09:02.

  8. #58
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    Default Re: 1 AR and 1 TJ?

    Quote Originally Posted by menace View Post
    I think the issue has been morphed into a debate that is a little off the points being made.
    Even here in the penal colony we don't have the refs to appoint ARs to every game - we all know the world over that is the same problem for everyone.
    What the AR discussion was about is on those rare occasions where you actually might have a ref standing idle with no appointment it seems logical to throw them onto a line (even if he was the only AR) - rather than just letting them stick their thumb up...(you now the rest)?
    Putting an idle ref to AR work during the season is a good way to develop their AR skills for when they are needed most - FINALS!
    So the numbers of refs is really moot to the argument.

    In my parts we "actively encourage" refs during the season to hang about and run as AR before/after they've done their game. Some do...many don't. This is both at the junior and senior levels. When there is excess refs (such as finals time) the referees that didn't get a run in the centre - get appointed as AR (some decline - many don't. many just want to least be part of the finals) - and sometime they are country games (2-3 hrs travel) where only 1 AR is available to send (also acts as the reserve referee).
    So rather than the "we just don't" - we have a system of trying to utilise what we can where we can...and to bridge that back to the OP - not get too hung up about law semantics.

    If there is any England "appointments guys" on here it would be interesting to know if there is a "we just don't" mentality or not when there is excess refs and what drives that? (ie it's just too difficulttime consuming, clubs/unions will not allow just 1 AR, refs hate ARing so refuse to do it, couldn't be @rsed asking the refs, ARing is for peasants).
    EXACTLY:

    However the technique of diverting the question from pne you don't have any answer to to a different question is well know in Politics.

    I've been asked (Wales) to go and AR for a "young" ref if there are no games available and I'm st a loose end or if my game gets called of late in the day. I find it a great way to:

    1: Help the ref develop by offering advise at suitable times.
    2: See how another ref does it. YOU can learn from them too!
    3: have a bit of a work out, albeit less that actually being in the middle.
    4: Enjoy the banter of a Sturday afternoon.
    5: Get a few bob exxpences.


    Whats not to like?


    In fact I have suggested that a few of the old buggers like me should be encouraged to become ARs once we decide that we are too old for reffing. After all if we are retiring we are not part of the ref pool anyway. that way there is no suggesting pf deleting the number of refs available. Also the Uion retaind experienced guys as "trainers". Obiously not all would be suitable or want to but where is the harm?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Dickie E View Post
    but its even more noteworthy than that. If there are 2 ARs appointed and one sprains her/his ankle and can't continue, the other loses her/his 'flagging rights'. THAT'S the bit I don't get
    Agreed it make no sense at all. Not to me anyway.

  9. #59
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    Default Re: 1 AR and 1 TJ?

    You have said Finals twice - however in England we do not have them in the same way as you do.

    The premiership does - but they have TO3/4 every week.

    There are play-offs between the third place teams where two leagues feed into one.
    While there are 12 County games - that leaves another 12 National panel TO3 for the most senior of the play offs.
    So the two the Divisional Premier play offs and the four Divisional 2 play-offs can get a TO3 from the national panel.
    And then there are a dozen or so more at lower levels round the country.

    I have seen sides mention that they struggle to cope with the change in interpretation as they get a ref they have never seen before coming down from the higher level.

  10. #60

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    Default Re: 1 AR and 1 TJ?

    I've had ()when playing a million years ago!) teams of three in county cup finals, including 2nd XV cups. Ive also played in a 2nd XV league game that after some history of ... "history" ... between two sides got provided with a To3.

    didds

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